Should i to get RAMSA?

[rty5150]

happy in pants!!!

Originally Posted by crufty

picked up an wr-t820. it is filthy! any ideas on what i can do to clean it?

denatured alcohol? some kind of crud all over it. also noisy but...to be expected! i love it so far. a huge step up, from well, basically nothing. can't beat the price on it--and the eq has FLOORED me: sweepable lows, mids, highs! HOLY SMOKES.

haven't put its thru its paces yet.

[crufty]

as am i!

first, regarding the eq--a disclaimer. i've never had extensive time with a desk or console of any kind before. everything i've used before had fixed hi/low, which is super crappy, and i rarely used them. i have used a few pre's w/eq, and of course itb.

i craft mostly electronic noises, so my eq demands may differ then the average ramsa user. what is important to me is making space for hi and low. for $300 I have 20 channels of eq...that are sweepable! This part is what amazes me. the eq may not sound great on voices, acoustic drums or guitars--i have no idea. in the synth world though--all i know--what is very important is blocking out frequency ranges. analog synth snares, bass, kicks, leads are very full. sweepable hi and low is a must. a sweepable mid is simply not enough. with this board, I can dial in just the right amount of space so the other pieces can squeeze thru. the low goes from 40 to 800hz! with no q control, it's not as precise as itb or other higher end modular console / outboard / pre-amp. however--this is what is amazing--is the price performance!

for example, andromeda kick presets are pretty anemic. well, a little kick boost here and bam, now we are thundering. at the same time, its bass presets are very full. 80hz cut plus a bit more cut in the 150hz range...now we get both kick and bass.

the andromeda also is lacking in the mids. by pumping the mids way up, i get a very full sound. it is probably distorting like a mutha, but it only adds to the effect I'm going for!

I think this board coupled with some nice outboard eq should be able to handle a whole bunch of stuff. I haven't yet cleaned it up either. lots of sccrrittch and the crud is stinky. did someone urinate on it in past life? I have to wonder.

i wish i had a manual. also, i need more cables! and a patch bay (or five).

i love it love it love it. the thing IS GIGANTIC btw.

i will post some samples of alesis andromeda love here in a bit.

[steelyfan]

Please do that! I've been drooling over the youtube demo's of this machine, and after I decided that yes, I will get one for sure, nobody has them in stock! ughh.. Would love to hear more about what you've tapped with it! There ARE some cool demos of it , people who have spent time programming some custom patches , but ALOT of demos of people who seem to just play a preset and then mess with the filters.......kinda boring.

Crufty I love to hear what you are doing with the Andy.

What do you need a patchbay for? Just curious.

Also, the more you turn knobs and push faders on the Ramsa it'll start working alot of that gunk out, you'll still need help from DEOXIT and just using the machine will help get out SOME of the kinks. Cool board.

But do please share some Andromeda tracks!

steelyfan

[crufty]

will do! because of the move to the ramsa, my recording structure is all fubar'd, plus a lack of cables (woah look at all those rcas), will try to do it this week some time.

in terms of the andy, i don't really program it much. it is hard! there are monos that i enjoy more. but i do a lot of tweaking. i usually don't save or write down what I did so tutt my songs are not much better then the demos in terms of what I've recorded. very simply (ashamed).

I do use it more as a workstation, just jamming out. the mix mode is great! i did do the donna summer i feel love bit this weekend. I'm not quite accomplished enough to play the whole song but i'll see if i can post a key bar or two. what i like about the andy is how well thought out it is! each mix mode can have 16 patches (assuming one voice per patch, not always the case mind you). and each patch can have it's own sequence! and layered/split as needed. so, for the donna summer patch, i have the lowest note as kick/clap (andy snares are weak. i tried to program my own but it is beyond my ability for now.). the next note is kick/clap/hat. then the next octave is the bass run--two patches layered, one for left and one for right. so the left hand drives the kick/bass line. then the right--well, the higher octaves are a string, representing donna summer herself (abliet poorly). one could layer on a choir under the string, maybe i will in the future. or some kind of synth line

all this is fed into the ramsa. the andy has voice outs, but uses a stereo configuration--I don't have stereo to mono cables. so i am using main (l/r) and aux (l/r).

the patch bay is for hooking up all my synths. a drum machine will have 10 outs. the andy has 16. right there is 26. I wish I knew if the ramsa board was inline or not. looks like tape or line in, not both (although) i can squish both buttons down together, I assume it is not meant for that.

the andy has a chord mode, which is really useful for trance runs. press and hold the chord button, then press your chord squence, one key at a time. release the chord button, now you have chords on a key! very handy for jamming out, though the chord math isn't smart--so if you have crazy chords, I think it just does +1/-1 transposition, meaning every now and then you'll wince as it doesn't progress like you would. what's nice is now this frees your hands for chords that require two hands, so that you can manipulate release/sustain for real time performance, or tweak the ramsa so you can hear the kick drum again

you can also program polyphonic voice to have its sequence triggered per key. so a triad of three keys, not pressed as a chord, but quickly as an arp, can each have its own sequence running. this gives a very nice trance effect, esp with 3 bass notes + one high.

another favorite trick of mine is to unison! take a bass, turn on unison -- two voices. bam, instant BASS. take a string, turn on unison, unison to 8 voices with massive detune. INSTANT HARD CORE.

as a jamming keyboard it is a lot of fun. programing in drums, basslines, then a few splits on the upper ranges. nothing i'd record or document, but...because it's polyphonic, you can change patches and it will continue to play the previous patch on the held keys (in some cases). this is nice when you find a nice drone in single patch mode, and then change to a nice string, and now you can jam out to your drone without stopping to create a special multi-timbural patch.

a final thought and then i'll stop gushing. the mix mode is the magic. since you can layer patches, and each patch can have its own sequence, and the sequence can be tied to not just a bar in length, but multiple bars, and modulate parameters, with gate times from 2ms to 10 seconds, you can get CRAZY out of space evolving pads etc. the ramsa mids, so far, have loved the andy mids--steely you will like it. do give it some time though, there is quite a bit of wtf do i do now once it first shows up! the envelopes have crazy options, 2 decays / 2 releases x pitch/filter/amp (plus modulations) and different envelope algos per point (linear, curved, etc etc) means you can really get some strange stuff and then foop! no sound at all.

[sleeper1400]

should you get a ramza?

no.

the ramzas are obsolete.

listen to others recommendations and decide from there.

[crufty]

this is the ramsa digesting the andy


i actually started from someplace much differently, but inadvertently left out the right input. so we start about halfway thru, perhaps mercifully so!

Please watch your monitor levels! there is a fair amount of clipping. as well, not much musicality. more illustrative. one finger on the andy, one note for the entire time. w/jomox 999 providing kick. this kind of journey is what I feel the andromeda really excels at, more so then many other synths. it would be trivial enough to record the entire session as midi, then go back and actually add real notes.

[skythemusic]

Hey, I have a Ramsa WRT and I have owned Soundcrafts (including the Ghost), etc. I WAY prefer the Ramsa to a Ghost. Much better headroom, way punchier pres, much more musical and sticky tone. The preamps on the Ramsa to my ears are world class. They are along the API family lines. The EQ is not amazing but you can add or subtract a boatload and it doesn't get particularly phased out. I prefer the Ramsa to many consoles I have worked on, including SSL's, Studers, most MCI's.

[ddageek]

with all due respect To Jim Williams the WRS and the 820 are completely different from the thing he reviewed! the 820 is a nice quiet very "HI FI" board if I remember though the inserts and alot of I?O is -10!

[steelyfan]

Originally Posted by crufty

this is the ramsa digesting the andy


i actually started from someplace much differently, but inadvertently left out the right input. so we start about halfway thru, perhaps mercifully so!

Please watch your monitor levels! there is a fair amount of clipping. as well, not much musicality. more illustrative. one finger on the andy, one note for the entire time. w/jomox 999 providing kick. this kind of journey is what I feel the andromeda really excels at, more so then many other synths. it would be trivial enough to record the entire session as midi, then go back and actually add real notes.

Hey Crufty!
Thanks for posting that sample.....the andy can geek out can't it?
Was that run through the ramsa or just DI to your sequencer?
By the way, what do you use to record with? Are you doing the 16 outs thing with the Andy? You know, you COULD simplify and use 4 stereo group busses which would be 8 instead of 16 channels. You'd have to settle on parts of the mix before hand, but making decissions like that helps the show go on.

[crufty]

Originally Posted by steelyfan

Hey Crufty!
Thanks for posting that sample.....the andy can geek out can't it?
Was that run through the ramsa or just DI to your sequencer?
By the way, what do you use to record with? Are you doing the 16 outs thing with the Andy? You know, you COULD simplify and use 4 stereo group busses which would be 8 instead of 16 channels. You'd have to settle on parts of the mix before hand, but making decissions like that helps the show go on.

np! that was a6 mainl/r -> ramsa to a native instruments kore 1 audio interface. that was all one patch, so it could have gone direct. but the ramsa eq does play a role in the sound! it is more then a 'tad'.

@ddageek, the i/o on the ramsa is definitely odd. but we shall work around it! there are a million rca connections.

i tried all night to play donna summer's i need love, but i just can't get the timing down. i recorded a few bars but its kissing your sister.

so i cheated and here it is via midi sequence:
summer love.mp3

the point of this shabby synth demo is that a skilled keyboardist could play this sequence live, and also to show what the ramsa eq does. i have the eq boosted +15 @ 1kz...and cutting big time @ 100hz, which probably includes some of the 80hz cut but with no manual have no idea what the q values are. in the hands of a bona fide musician i would expect wonderful sounds!

in the beginning i bypass the eq a few times. it is a major part of the sound in my opinion. not saying the eq can't be found on other boards.

there are some mixing issues because i don't have all the right cables for voice out (not to mention i need more practice!) and one of the voices keeps dropping, which is probably something i should look into but won't. i rarely use more then 3-4 patches at a time in mix mode.

btw i use logic for sequencing and recording. in this case, i am doing 4 out, 2 main and 2 aux in the above link, using 11 patches. i think i could get a better sound by doing all out and riding the faders.

anyhoo, hope nobody finds this too horribly offensive. there is better a6 stuff in other threads to say the least...

ps. how do i do the 4 stereo buses? it would be nice to use only one in as opposed to two for stereo stuff.

[steelyfan]

How many aux's does the ramsa have?

[crufty]

sorry for the delay in reply--the ramsa inspired me to get out some synths previously in retirement, and have had a bit too much fun geeking out. next up, more midi cables so the timing is in sync


in terms of aux's...with no manual there may be some functionality i'm missing. so i have attached (blurry) pics of the strip / bus section, since such images seem to be missing on the net.

on inspection, there are two aux (mono) channels, a send L-R, a send return L-R, and of course the 8 groups which do not appear to have any direct outs--but i can't tell for sure. That may be what the buttons 1/9 may be for. there is a phono out and in and the usual control room / main outs. I'm not sure if this is typical or not, but there aren't any aux returns, so aha that's what channels 17-20 must be for.

I'm quite stumped as to what program mix does. I'm wondering if that is an inline control for the tape, since there is a tape trim as well as mic/line trim. Does anyone know?

The tape ins/outs are rca and i have *zero* rca cables so haven't had time to test.

I love the spaciousness of the sound. There are many reasons to buy other products, but for me, this is as good as I'm going to get.

[FreshSkweez]

Originally Posted by ddageek

with all due respect To Jim Williams the WRS and the 820 are completely different from the thing he reviewed! the 820 is a nice quiet very "HI FI" board if I remember though the inserts and alot of I?O is -10!

From the sound of it I think he's talking about the one I have, the WR-8616.

I'm sure there were plenty of boards out then with better crosstalk & S/N but this thing sounds sick. Both I and our other engineers have put in a ton of man hours on this board over the two years we've had it and we have nothing but good things to say about the sound quality (as do our clients more importantly ;-).

[steelyfan]

Originally Posted by FreshSkweez

From the sound of it I think he's talking about the one I have, the WR-8616.

I'm sure there were plenty of boards out then with better crosstalk & S/N but this thing sounds sick. Both I and our other engineers have put in a ton of man hours on this board over the two years we've had it and we have nothing but good things to say about the sound quality (as do our clients more importantly ;-).

The Ramsa's are real sleepers. I get confused when people refer to them as "low-end"....... The WRS-4424 was @ $9500.00 in the mid 80's! A new Toft ATB 24 channel runs for $6000.oo TODAY..... what am I missing here? I mean all that aside, the board has bully preamps and a sound that just reeks of analog honey drip. I'm not sure if it's the price of them that convinces people to think this, or maybe they have just worked on much
nicer machines, I'm not an expert or pro so I wouldn't know.

What I do know is that, @ 5 years ago a Roland Jupiter 8 or a Sh-5 could be had on ebay for @ $300-$500.....and judging those machines by that market at the time would had been a big mistake. Those machines fetch over $2000.00 now that analog is in style again. WATCH these boards go up in a year or two when the guys tired of mouses and ITB workings realize that these Ramsa'a got the mojo JUICE in spades!

cheers,
steelyfan

[crufty]

for me, the ramsa board has been stellar. The usual low / hi shelving eqs have ALWAYS been a turn off--in the electronic world more control is needed. The ramsa board is very good for a low end guy like me. It's got me recording again. I actually have control over the elements of what I'm recording! I do wish I had a manual. I feel like there should be some way I can insert on the groups / busses, but can't figure it out. I'm not quite sure of the relationship between send L/R and fx, and don't know what program mix is.

Anybody figure it out?

Attached my favorite synth in the world, the fr 777. Left chan is native, Right chan is Dm-100 delay w/phase inverted (Trying to go for pseudo haas effect, not too great actually). What is nice is that the eq is cutting out low end--80 hz high pass activated, then a few db more starting at 70 hz, rounding it off to for any kick. a dip @ 1k takes care of some resonance problems as well as letting in snares / hats. No other elements in this short jam, but the three band sweepable eq is very very nice. Other eq may be more 'musical' on acoustic elements. I have a chameleon labs preamp/eq and digital. The cl stuff is very nice and really brings out the warmth of the 777. At one point, I was despondent--I had resigned myself to getting racks of cl 7602's and then dealing with whatever mackie I had. With the 820--I am not likely to get more then a few more 7602s...I like their sound on gritty synths and they are worth it for that, though the 820 can do the job just fine.

Digital of course is super clean / surgical etc. I don't feel like I'm missing anything on the 820...it's not as deadly accurate as an itb eq, but I'm good with that. An x-rack of ssl eq may be in the future if I really need that surgical 'scoop this bump that filter this' type thing.

Overall...if I had a choice between a fairly clean ramsa @ $300 or a midas @ $3000, I'd be very tempted to go with the Ramsa. I get the new board mentality: I'm sure as time goes on I'll have to maintain the board more then the venice.

To be honest though, anybody looking for a new board, I would advise them: go used! There are incredible deals out there...a 64 channel otari concept for $2.5k, w/full automation. That is amazing.

[steelyfan]

I talked my friend into getting the WRS-4412 @ 3 months ago. He LOVES it, and tracks everything through it. All this Ramsa talk and my studio is Ice-cold (no central heat, only air).

I miss it! I love riding those those lovely faders, smooooooooth...

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by steelyfan

The Ramsa's are real sleepers. I get confused when people refer to them as "low-end"....... The WRS-4424 was @ $9500.00 in the mid 80's!

well right that would be almost 19-20k now based on inflation.

Originally Posted by steelyfan

A new Toft ATB 24 channel runs for $6000.oo TODAY.....

thank the lord for cnc and chinese sweat shops........

Originally Posted by steelyfan

what am I missing here?
steelyfan

I guess meet it half way. Maybe the ramsa is better than a toft based on the price. But even though something did cost more money in the 80's than something similar in modern times is not a guarantee it is better.

Something like a Toft is probably made all on automated machinery with the exception of the assembly. And even a portion of that I bet is automated. But that is done in a cheap labor country. ICs are a 5th of the cost they were 25 years ago as are many of the parts of similar type and quality, thanks again to advances in automated CAD/CAM... and asian manufacturing. Rasma was Japan too though?

I would hope the rasma is better build quality than a toft but who knows? I'm sure many of the rasma components may have been of higher quality but with (chinese) cheap labor and many component prices arguably less or the same today who knows? Mass produced electronics is one area where the prices often come down. Look at behringer. Think about how inexpensive their products are and they are not all bad. I own a pod and a vamp. I like the vamp better and it is 1/3 the price. They make a nice headphone amp too that I use when the knucklehead metalheads come into record.

I agree you have a point about inflation but with china and the newer cad/cam production/mfg techniques it would be hard to discern really what the real difference in price/cost would be including inflation, with regards to toft vs ramsa.

Lastly I would hope Malcom Toft maybe even using cheaper components is still a better designer than the to guys at ramsa were. He did after all co-design the 80b and a-range consoles among others.

I'm not disagreeing w/ you, but just pointing out a couple observations.... rasma did make decent boards back in the day but an ATB has the advantage of first off designed by Malcom Toft and the also the advantage of (some) modern components that are often less expensive than their 1980s counterparts due to modern factory automation.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

Lastly I would hope Malcom Toft maybe even using cheaper components is still a better designer than the to guys at ramsa were. He did after all co-design the 80b and a-range consoles among others.

I would love to see a Malcolm Toft/John Wendt cage match! Me and John Oram would be in the first row!

Many of us did wonderful work many years ago. To me what matters now is what have you done lately?

In record lingo, you're only as good as your last hit. I havn't heard about Wendt for quite some time...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[crufty]

The real advantage new stuff has more then anything is availability and there's less of a risk.

Regarding the wrt-820, everything feels very very solid. The thing is 42 x 36 or so, 1' high in the back (incl bridge). wood sides, leather strip across the front. It weighs a lot, but I could carry it without any help (STRONG LIKE OX). Forum legends also holds that it retailed for about $9k back in the day as well (or so it would seem). It definitely feels and looks like it. I feel like I lucked out. I have used other mackies, yammies, berhinger etc and this thing is DEFINITELY in league in its on in the build department.

But then again, my options are very limited and I've not ever used a really spendy desk. I don't think I would try to steer someone away from a Toft or Venice. One thing is if a knob or fader is a little scritchy I've got to live with it. If you have $5k to make recordings and you spend $300 and then spend 4 weeks cleaning it up, have you really got your money worth? Mine are not that scratchy as it turns out , but if it happens I'm on my own. W/Toft or Venice, you get new and you can call 'em up and say 'OY! HOW COMES THE SOLO BUTTON ON CHANNEL 5 MAKES THE STATIC' etc etc. So I could never tell someone who just wants to get his / her music down without worrying about to look at these older desks. BUT--if $3000 vs $300 makes a difference to you--oh hell yeah!

Internet lore also holds most of the cost is in the eq and I believe it. Likewise, they look less like a trident and more like these guys.

API 550A Discrete 3 Band EQ

[steelyfan]

Yea, I'm not sure about any of it really. I do know that there is a big difference in something made in China as opposed to Japan. Japan is very serious about their electronics, more so than probably anyone I can think of. I don't think they would send a Ramsa mixing board to China to be assembled though......then again I'm only assuming/guessing.

What's interesting is that there's lots of mixing boards being made today that cost lots of money that don't have a sound. I guess technology has "fixed" this delima. I myself have not used a lot of boards, but enough different types to know what to listen for. Nothing in a big/ professional studio though (i could be missing out on something....??). Of the boards being made today NEW for under say.....$10,000, I can't think of ANY that have mojo to them, something that adds some charm/energy to the signal....... but I realize that most people don't wont that too

I'm no gear expert for sure, far from it really. I know what I like. It's just that in an age of all these people wanting some of that old analog sound they grew up with, and buying BIG dollar gear for two channels of it........ man..........I'm trying to be a fellow slut and share a secret........24 channels for under $1000.00...........I'm giving this info away!


steelyfan

[steelyfan]

I've heard the Toft and Midas' are especially nice boards too, and have heard some great recordings done on them. I haven't heard many recordings done on them that sound retro though, probablly cause it wasn't what the owners were into though.

And for the record, I'm still living with some scratchy channels......they actually even ruined a couple of killer drum takes when they started acting up after a few months of good behavior. But deoxit has worked some wonders on mine (got it off of ebay, it was clean.......but had some scratchy channels.)

[TEB]

I've worked on Ramsas in 3 different places. I can't recall the model at the first two, but currently I am working on a WR-C4520. All 3 had one thing in common...crackling pots and faders. Someone mentioned maintenance earlier in this thread, which these boards probably were NOT maintained well, and that seems to be the big thing to watch out for, from my experience.

Avoid that (or work around it) and you should be able to get some decent work done. Still, I'd make sure I wasn't selling my firstborn to get one. It aint THAT good.

[crufty]

agreed! Key point here is these boards can be had for $300 - $500.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by George Necola

I would never get a RAMSA.. maintenance terror.. deluxe.

sound is so so..

you can get a used modified ghost + cabling for this price.

I disagree both about maintainance and sound - at least in the case of my WRT-820. I can't say about other models, but mine has never had a problem. However I wouldn't pay much for one these days - no more that $1000, preferably about half to 3/4 that.

+1 on the modified Ghost - but it'll cost you significantly more than the RAMSA.

+10 on the Midas Venice, but buy it quick before Behringer's bean counters gut the company.

I don't know why George is so negative about RAMSA, in my experience they have no more problems than comparable consoles of similar age, including Soundcraft. I have a Soundcraft DC-2020 with moving fader automation - about a $70,000 board in the mid '90s, far more expensive than any Ghost and a far better all around console - but it has a few scratchy pots. And because of the mechanical design it's a bitch to work on - FAR more difficult than my RAMSA WRT 820, which is at present in a friend's studio. And, at least in my part of the US, there seems to be difficulty in getting parts for some older Soundcrafts - I've been waiting over a year for a replacement motorized fader.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by TEB

I've worked on Ramsas in 3 different places. I can't recall the model at the first two, but currently I am working on a WR-C4520. All 3 had one thing in common...crackling pots and faders. Someone mentioned maintenance earlier in this thread, which these boards probably were NOT maintained well, and that seems to be the big thing to watch out for, from my experience.

Avoid that (or work around it) and you should be able to get some decent work done. Still, I'd make sure I wasn't selling my firstborn to get one. It aint THAT good.

Let me clue you in on something - ANY console made in the late '80s that has not been maintained well is likely to have crackly pots and faders.

[steelyfan]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Let me clue you in on something - ANY console made in the late '80s that has not been maintained well is likely to have crackly pots and faders.

Thanks for saying that. I feel like the compromise I make sometimes for channels being grouchy in exchange for how the audio sounds rules out in my favour for sure. I'm somewhat entertained by the character of my ramsa, being that it's behavior is starting to become a personality in my music. It's like a very random fireplace crackling in the background of some of my recordings, when a channel starts to decide to be dirty, a log burst into flames for a moment or something. It sounds like a record smug or skip, like you are listening to a record recorded to a cassette. ......
It 's not frustrating , It seems familiar to listen to

I've embraced this idea, like all my future recordings might feel the wrath of the Ramsa.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I would love to see a Malcolm Toft/John Wendt cage match! Me and John Oram would be in the first row!

Many of us did wonderful work many years ago. To me what matters now is what have you done lately?

In record lingo, you're only as good as your last hit. I havn't heard about Wendt for quite some time...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I never heard of John Wendt. Was he a 'highly decorated' audio designer?
what do you think of the toft? Ive read you've done some mods?

[TacosWhenTwisted]

selling mine. located in california

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...rs-4416-a.html

dont want to sell her, but I need to downsize.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

I never heard of John Wendt. Was he a 'highly decorated' audio designer?
what do you think of the toft? Ive read you've done some mods?

I never knew audio designers were decorated. I thought we all look and dress like bums.

Wendt is the designer of those Ramsa consoles. He's a bit of an ***, but I digress.

The Toft is what I would call a console with potential. They can be made to sound and measure very good. That does require mass amounts of rework however. I have posted and given away in this forum all the mods needed for the master module. Try them, they work.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[TEB]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Let me clue you in on something - ANY console made in the late '80s that has not been maintained well is likely to have crackly pots and faders.

I never said or implied this wasn't the case. I said be ready for it.


Thanks for the "clue".