FX on Violin

[Max The Dog]

I am mixing a live concert dvd for a semi well know pop\smooth jazz band. The violinist uses a delay pedal on his live sound. After hearing a first pass that i did, he complained that his sound was not wet enough. I had added a good bit of reverb, the same Lexicon pcm 96 plate that i put the rest of the band in. Also, he wanted his sound "warmer".

The warmer part is easy, I'll just cut some nasty highs, I guess.

What should I do to make this instrument wetter? more verb? longer verb for only the violin? more delay?

I like the sound of the rest of the mix and don't want to change the overall reverb.

TIA

[Michael Bridges]

As an electric violin player myself I might be able to give a few pointers. To get a warmer sound I'd avoid cutting highs as that is where the nice harmonics live that'll help give a sweet sound and allow the violin to cut through in the mix. Anywhere between 3 - 8k.
I generally find the offensive frequencies are around 1-2 k, and these can be scooped quite severely if necessary. Also you can boost the fundamentals from about 200-400 Hz.
As far as reverb goes, not too much, use delay instead. It'll keep the sound better defined but still give a much more 'symphonic' sort of sound. Still if it's Jazz I assume they might be playing pretty fast in which case it could just get messy so it's a tricky one. As I've learnt over a long time - dry can be good!
Violinists are notorious for wanting more reverb, it hides our little mistakes!

[Max The Dog]

Originally Posted by violincat

As an electric violin player myself I might be able to give a few pointers. To get a warmer sound I'd avoid cutting highs as that is where the nice harmonics live that'll help give a sweet sound and allow the violin to cut through in the mix. Anywhere between 3 - 8k.
I generally find the offensive frequencies are around 1-2 k, and these can be scooped quite severely if necessary. Also you can boost the fundamentals from about 200-400 Hz.
As far as reverb goes, not too much, use delay instead. It'll keep the sound better defined but still give a much more 'symphonic' sort of sound. Still if it's Jazz I assume they might be playing pretty fast in which case it could just get messy so it's a tricky one. As I've learnt over a long time - dry can be good!
Violinists are notorious for wanting more reverb, it hides our little mistakes!

Thanks for that input. I guess the question is, more delay on top of existing delay?

[Gilli C]

what about a different reverb for the violin as from the rest of the band? you could then experiment with just the different verb on the violin or a blend of both.

If you have a separate verb for the violin you could experiment with timing the pre delay as well.

G

[Max The Dog]

Originally Posted by Gilli C

what about a different reverb for the violin as from the rest of the band? you could then experiment with just the different verb on the violin or a blend of both.

If you have a separate verb for the violin you could experiment with timing the pre delay as well.

G

i generally try to keep everyone in the same space, but, that may be the answer.

[Preme Diesel]

what sort of delay does one typically use on violin?

[gurubuzz]

Quite frankly delay on delay can get messy.

I would add some parallel compression like 6:1 and i would also try some parallel distortion.
If you have a distortion plug thats multiband or a sweep type bandpass setting and distort the low mid and slightly blend.

The really compressed track should have a really long release, this will bring up the tail of the existing effect.

[Musiclab]

this is silly, eq it so the scratchy quality is gone usually with cutting upper mids , maybe you want to compress and add some reverb. A darker verb will probably be better, and time would be determined by the track.

[sahiaman]

What other instruments are in the mix? Is his violin suppose to be up front, or is it suppose to compliment something else, like a voice?

[analogjeff]

LOTS of experience here related to the original question...

violincat's advice is right on... here's a bit of what we do re the issues described...

yes, maybe cut a bit, appropriately, somewhere between 1 and 3k
or, use multiband compression in this area -- that sometimes works
or, use a de-esser in that same area -- this sometimes works best, leaving the original tracks less altered sounding

As for verb/delay
-- I agree that too much verb can get to be a problem -- a really sweet, darkish plate verb, though, can sometimes provide just the right note-lengthening effect without adding a lot of extra space around the instrument

-- and, we, too, use more delay than verb on violin -- lexicon delay is very smooth, and probably right for the jazz kind of project you're working on -- ITB we use some of the programs in Echo Farm and love them (e.g., for smooth try memory man, boss, etc.) -- another trick is to use a nice smooth stereo delay that allows you to set L and R to different times and amounts -- when using this approach we'll often put the L at an 8th note delay and less of it, while putting the R at a quarter note with more of it -- this gives the sense of the intsrument being located left but carrying to the right -- delay on the violin as a pretty full effect is also a blast, but I think the project you're working on may not allow that... we do things like record a DI track, an electric stereo track with some effects, and if it's an acoustic instrument with a pickup, we'll add a microphone, too -- then you can process and place all of these sources differently...

have fun...

[Digitar]

Max, Is the violin trakked with delay already? If so, then you will definitely have to find the delay time of the one he already has on there. Once you find it try to work in multiples such as 1/8ths against quarters or whatever.

I would try using a modulated delay to give a little movement to the sound and just might take a little of the edge off. Hopefully you have a DI track free of effects, but from your explanations it doesn't sound like it.

[dkelley]

it would be pretty easy to set your studio's reverb's pre-delay to match that of the violinist's live delay by ear, then you have a bit of reverb in sync with his delay.

also add a bit of non-delayed verb in there, plate or similar but pretty light. make sure there's plenty of good pure electric violin tone in there too of course.

I'm a session player who's first instrument is violin (including electric) and an engineer, that's a cruddy situation to me in a way that you're going through, sounds like the violinist isn't happy with his original tone. Time for him/her to go back to the tone drawing board.

cheers,
Don

[tysonviolin]

Strings interact with the room they are in almost more than any other instrument there is. The sound we are used to hearing as a violin is in reality about 50% reverb and room. I find that modeled reverbs work best since they have a lot of the early resonance and reflections other reverbs lack. Experiment. Also, the 1k to 3k cut is usually mandatory for a close miked violin to sound right to a violinist.

[John Eppstein]

Too bad you didn't take a dry track along with the wet one. Would have made things much, much easier. I generally don't trust performers' delay boxes to have really appropriate settings for a given mix - they're more useful for performance monitor fx than actual recording. You'll have to try to sync your studio delay with the recorded on. Big pain, and seldom satisfactory. You can try a spot of reverb, but it'll likely muddy things up.

[chrisrnps]

As another violin player, I suggest you dunk the violin in a stock-pot of boiling water if the self-styled Jean-Luc there keeps complaining about "his sound" not being "warm" and "wet" enough.

[Musiclab]

he already has delay on it, there have been suggestions about eq, in my experience recording and mixing violin, they are pretty accurate, the verb will soften the delay and warm up the violin , and it's totally OK for it but be in it's own environment.

[Max The Dog]

Originally Posted by chrisrnps

As another violin player, I suggest you dunk the violin in a stock-pot of boiling water if the self-styled Jean-Luc there keeps complaining about "his sound" not being "warm" and "wet" enough.

Yeah, I just wonder why, if you were using your own delay, you would not put the proper amount on it in the first place. I did not track this event. These are all great suggestions. Thanks for them.

I can't rely on too much timed stuff, It was a live show, not to click and the original delay is not really synced. I like the compression idea. that might bring out the original delay. maybe a slow attack...