HELP! PLEASE Feeback On A Current Trade Deal and What I need more....

[Calvin Frazier]

My Current Vocal Chain Set up is

Mojave 200 >> Avalon 737 >> Motu Ultra Lite >> YHM 8S


And I wanted to step my vocal chain up a lil more....I was told by a friend quoted from a aim convo

-------

BrandonHeat (3:56:26 PM): you should by dynaudio monitors... or an actual good monitor... not a reference monitor... that should be first

BrandonHeat (3:56:39 PM): so you can actually mix on something good

BrandonHeat (4:00:25 PM): people use the monitors you have as reference monitors... not mixing monitors... most studios use BIG ass dynaudios lol the bm5a's are really what you need... they are flat... your aren't... you mix on a dynaudio you get the sound you want... and it's universal
-------

so he's claiming I need better monitors to mix on and worry about converters later....which I've heard from soooo many people converters makes everything sound sooo much better and forsure the Rosetta 200 is a huge upgrade from the motu.....my friend said still
-------

BrandonHeat (4:04:09 PM): real talk... you could use them more...

BrandonHeat (4:04:20 PM): ad/da isn't shit if it's going to a shit set of monitors...

BrandonHeat (4:22:57 PM): you'd have a better signal going in... with almost the same signal coming out... because of the monitors... which does nothing cause you won't hear what you're mixing anyway lmao

BrandonHeat (4:24:22 PM): adam makes great monitors... dynaudio makes better ones for the price...

BrandonHeat (4:30:57 PM): the ones you have a referenece monitors... it's like recording with a mxl 660 just to put the verse down and doing it later one a nuemann mic...

BrandonHeat(4:31:11 PM): yamaha = mxl... dynaudio/adams = nuemann

BrandonHeat (4:31:12 PM): feel me?

BrandonHeat (4:31:21 PM): just an example... mad extreme but still lol
-------

I mean I feel my mixes are pretty good coming from these monitors I've been using theses for a few years now also having the yahama sub ... I won't say my mixes are perfect but I aim still working on my mixing skills....but I do wanna step up some where in my gear chain since I have the extra money...I really had my eyes on getting a better converter....so much I went to guitar center today and I pretty much got a deal going 12,000 + SOLO 610 trade for a Brand New ROSETTA 200.....which in my mind seems like a great deal when they only sell them used at $500 and I never use my 610 any more since I got the Avalon....so I came back home to think the deal out some more and see if theROSETTA 200 is going be better for me or is it some new monitors I need more....I'm soooo stuck and lost right now....I only have like 1000 - 1500 to spend....please yall get me right before I do something stupid...what should I do??

[iomegaman]

Frankly the difference in A/D via a nominal set of monitors might not impress you that much.

I would not classify the step up from Motu to Apogee as a "huge upgrade"...we've A/B'd some of the best and the differences are like comparing fish markets...if everyone has their own boat then it becomes a matter of taste and not freshness.

In my humble opinion...if you feel more confident in a converter upgrade, then your mixes will reflect that.

To thine own self be true.

If it were me...I'd be looking at a different vocal chain...not overly impressed with the Avalon stuff we have...

I think it might be more important to determine what you are trying to accomplish here...if you are trying to tweak subtle things in the vocal track a converter upgrade "might" do some of that....but there are no guarantees it will.

I will suggest you give yourself some more options on the vox chain, keep the 610, maybe look at some mics, or perhaps a compressor to add to the chain...more tools can give you more options, different A/D will not.

The way a vox track sits in the mix is more about the signal chain than the conversion process, if that were not so, then there would be one converter to rule them all and you'd be able to hear it on every album...it is a combination of tools, technique and talent.

I've seen incredible voice tracks done on sub-par converters with the right coaching, once it hit the mix you had no idea what converter was used.

If you are completely happy with your tool box then do what makes you more confident.

GC is the last place I would be getting gear advice from, it is a place that is designed to unload quantities of products by any means necessary...YMMV

[Calvin Frazier]

Originally Posted by iomegaman

Frankly the difference in A/D via a nominal set of monitors might not impress you that much.

I would not classify the step up from Motu to Apogee as a "huge upgrade"...we've A/B'd some of the best and the differences are like comparing fish markets...if everyone has their own boat then it becomes a matter of taste and not freshness.

In my humble opinion...if you feel more confident in a converter upgrade, then your mixes will reflect that.

To thine own self be true.

If it were me...I'd be looking at a different vocal chain...not overly impressed with the Avalon stuff we have...

I think it might be more important to determine what you are trying to accomplish here...if you are trying to tweak subtle things in the vocal track a converter upgrade "might" do some of that....but there are no guarantees it will.

I will suggest you give yourself some more options on the vox chain, keep the 610, maybe look at some mics, or perhaps a compressor to add to the chain...more tools can give you more options, different A/D will not.

The way a vox track sits in the mix is more about the signal chain than the conversion process, if that were not so, then there would be one converter to rule them all and you'd be able to hear it on every album...it is a combination of tools, technique and talent.

I've seen incredible voice tracks done on sub-par converters with the right coaching, once it hit the mix you had no idea what converter was used.

If you are completely happy with your tool box then do what makes you more confident.

GC is the last place I would be getting gear advice from, it is a place that is designed to unload quantities of products by any means necessary...YMMV

Thanks brotha for even taking your time out to read an reply.....to be honest I'm happy with my mic and avalon so far....plus I don't have thousands of dollars to step them areas up like I could.....guess you told me what I didn't want to hear...lol

[iomegaman]

Well I did not post to specifically discourage you...what I have discovered is that some people can get incredible results with very mediocre equipment if they are confident and have found how to exploit what they have...

Gear lust is a distracting evil that keeps us from accomplishing what we originally started out to do...the people who are doing the most have not the disease, or at minimum do not let the disease distract them...and sometimes...

...it is better to sound new than it is to sound good...

[Nfinite2006]

Sup, Calvin


I honestly think adding to converters to your setup really would help but thats just my opinion.

i agree with some of the thing iomegaman said in his post...it would be cool up upgrade mic pres & mics...But for what your recording you already know the avalon is dope calvin...i love mine.


i would NEVER take advice from anyone from GC..but the deal you have going there is a good one IMO..i'd def do it.


honestly man i think upgrading converters is the way to go....you can always upgrade monitors later down the road.

[Calvin Frazier]

respect what you saying mega....and thanks Nikko

[Calvin Frazier]

MORE FEEDBACK!....theres over 400 people viewing this place..lol

[chrysb93065]

If you know what your monitors will translate to - meaning on other systems, ipods, etc., then keep them and go for the Rosetta. It will be a bit more colored than the MOTU, but probably will provide more perceived depth/width. Keep the 610 and save for a Pacifica.

[John Eppstein]

Don't take advice from GC.

At your stage good monitors are probably more important. It's easier to do good work with proper monitors and good/average converters than vice-versa.....

[Calvin Frazier]

this really is a debate....some for monitors some for converters...crazy

[slaves666]

Get some converters........They will help you capture a better signal.....Monitors are important, but a lot of us still mix on NS-10's.....Since we use great gear before listening back, I am confident that the vocal sounds great....even if I wouldn't have great monitors.

[Calvin Frazier]

hmmmmm....

[the_Chris]

Two experienced audio engineer friends of mine have recommended upgrading monitors before converters. Also, if you don't have adequate room treatment go ahead and invest in some. It's the easiest way to make your current monitors sound a lot more impressive (not to mention, make your recorded tones sound a lot more professional). A good room will bring all of the frequencies much better into focus. Good monitors will take things even further. If you can't hear what's going on, the best gear won't help you. Good room treatment has been the best investment I've done thus far and once I get some high end monitors I think I'll be 75% of the way there.

It seems as if you like your mic and mic pres so why mess with a good thing? With a good monitoring setup you can work a lot faster and get your mixes to translate better. Plus, you'll be able to get a lot more mileage out of your current vocal chain. You'll be able to actually really hear what EQ and compressors can do for the tone and it will give you a lot more flexibility.

[saovi]

There is going to be a difference either way. Upgrading monitors can make a difference on how you perceive your mixes and will probably change the way you mix. Going from Motu to Apogee is also a significant upgrade and again will probably change the way you perceive your mixes and will probably change the way you mix.

My point is that both are important. If money is an issue, you'll just need to decide which to go with first but eventually you'll want both. Personally, I would go with monitors first but that's just me.

[AMIEL]

Always Monitors first!
That is a fact!

Monitors are your ears, converters and others are tools.

Imagine yourself in the best studio with the best gear but with a piece of cotton in your ears , do you think you can mix right?

now imagine your self at a regular home studio with descent monitors .
I am sure you will be able to mix better.

So get your monitor first because all your recording and mixing desitions will be better and closer to the reality.

even if your converters are not so good now, does not matter, is your reality.

Good gear and bad monitors will never tell you what is your reality.

In my opinion if you can afford the Focal Solo 6Be great, if not i may go with the Dynaudio BM5A over BMB6!


Your first priority should be Monitors + Room treatment!
will give you a bigger difference than the best converter with bad monitors and bad room acoustics!

[Calvin Frazier]

Thanks alot for the info y'all....I guess monitors it is

[slaves666]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

Always Monitors first!
That is a fact!

Monitors are your ears, converters and others are tools.

Imagine yourself in the best studio with the best gear but with a piece of cotton in your ears , do you think you can mix right?

now imagine your self at a regular home studio with descent monitors .
I am sure you will be able to mix better.

So get your monitor first because all your recording and mixing desitions will be better and closer to the reality.

even if your converters are not so good now, does not matter, is your reality.

Good gear and bad monitors will never tell you what is your reality.

In my opinion if you can afford the Focal Solo 6Be great, if not i may go with the Dynaudio BM5A over BMB6!


Your first priority should be Monitors + Room treatment!
will give you a bigger difference than the best converter with bad monitors and bad room acoustics!

So then what about all the NS-10 and auratone users?

I do agree that they are important, but if you have a killer source, it's there....monitors don't change that.....yes they help you mix, but if you have a great source, things mix themselves easier......

I'd take sub $1000 monitors and a 2k converter rather than the other way around....That's like Adam P22a's and a 003 rack, or Adam A7's and an Aurora 16. I think you'd get better overall results with the latter.

We all know room acoustic matter but that is another issue.

[matt2525]

What model are your monitors? If they're half way decent and you REALLY know how to listen on them and know you're getting the best from your source, then your decision could go either way, otherwise, I'd say monitors all the way - plenty monitors you wouldn't even hear the difference between two convertors, and although the quality of the conversion will be on your recording, your ears haven't had the benefit of hearing what you are recording when tracking - you're only guessing. With decent monitors you won;t have to think twice about whether the sound you're getting from source into your DAW is the sound you really want - you'll have the benefit of hearing what your room, the mic, your eq, your compressor and finally your convertors are actually doing to your signal on the way in, and give you the opportunity to adjust anything you don't like.

If anything I reckon monitors are more important when tracking than mixing - as the above poster mentioned, many engineers have learned to mix successfully on NS10s and Auratones (although not often as their ONLY monitors), but usually in tracking they'll have the benefit of some decent (mostly uncoloured) monitors. In my mind, this makes it more important to get the monitoring as good as possible before upgrading your converters.

one more thing.... if you're working for clients rather than yourself, you'll get a lot more WOW factor from the look and sound of some quality monitors than you will with a shiny new AD box

[Calvin Frazier]

Well I went into guitar center and bought the BM5As and will be getting them next week some time...so from what is mostly said I feel I have made a better choice for the present time......I heard these agaist the Adams and the Adams seem to have more in the HI's and I want flat as possible..I already got Yamahas 8 for reference and they sound nice in the HI's


now how should my set up be when I get these....do I hook these up to my yahmaha sub will that mess anything up?

[5down1up]

you really should try everything you want to ! take it home with you, hook it up, pay a fee if the store wants to. if it doesnt convience you, give it back, no matter what brands attached to the box.

better have a few tools you like besides having racks or rooms loaded with things you dont need. might look cool in the first place but its sensless imho.

good luck thumbsup

[Calvin Frazier]

I do have 30 days to return when I get them with no restocking fee....lol

[suedesound]

So then what about all the NS-10 and auratone users?

Just speaking for myself, but I only use auratones as reference to our dynaudios and westlake mains. I would never mix only on them or NS10's, but I like to switch to them pretty often to see how everything's translating.

To the OP I think you made the right choice getting monitors before converters, I think you should always have some alternate to check on even if it's good headphones or your car/home stereo. I haven't used the Dyn's you ordered but I love mixing on our BM15's, and if they're at all similar you'll hear what's actually going on much better (insert room treatment statement).

[RTR]

Ns-10's sound like a big pile of shit..very bad IMO..but that's the point..if it sounds good on those pieces of crap..it will sound good on anything!!

[5down1up]

Originally Posted by RTR

Ns-10's sound like a big pile of shit..very bad IMO..but that's the point..if it sounds good on those pieces of crap..it will sound good on anything!!

i like mine, with a good poweramp they can kick ass. especially nice with drums. monitors as big as washing machines are cool as well, just sad that i always wonder, where did it all go ?

a solid guitar box has 4*12 speakers ... its just not coming out of those so called studio speakers

[Calvin Frazier]

man thanks for all the feedback!!......feels like family on here!