Amp Sim vs. Cab Sim?

hduncan · 31st May 2009

I know there isnt a whole lot of love for Amp sims around here, except maybe for PT's Eleven, but I was wondering:

Is it the Amp/Distortion part of the sims that fail to deliver or is it the Cabinet part of it that fails to deliver?

The reason I ask is because I am going for some metal guitar sounds and cant afford an amp+cabinet setup, but maybe I can afford "half" of one..

So, if its the distortion that software just cant do, then maybe I get a pedal or some hardware to go between the guitar and computer, or if its the cab, then I can keep the distortion but leave off the cabinet emulation and send the tracks out to a real cabinet..

I have Izotope Trash and the cabinets seem pretty nice, but I've never been able to get the kind of metal sound I want out of it.

So, is there any way to get hardware involved in half of the chain to make a significant jump in tone quality?

audiovisceral · 31st May 2009

Get a recording pre like triaxis, then cab sim.

mdme_sadie · 31st May 2009

Both ends fail, and both ends win. In terms of playability i've never come across a software Amp Sim that was even semi close to a real amp. However ignore all that for a minute and consider it as merely effect processing and you can create some great tones/sounds for recording with. Probably the most difficult area is going to be the simulation of the distortion/amp itself, you can use IR's and there are a few plugins out there that do a fairly good job of speaker simulation (up to a point), though again all of them to me feel over-compressed, like they're producing caricatures of speaker setups you know, but it's closer and in A/B you'll not notice as much.

Bear in mind that most pedals at most only do the preamp end of things, you wont get any poweramp crunch or chewyness so while it'll at least give you instant gratification while playing, which is better than feeling total disconnect, it's still not really the right sound and is going to require quite a lot of work to get the right sound going, you could consider splitting the source, recording via line, and putting the other line to a real but cheap amp so at elast you get the gratification but can then apply whatever sounds you want itb maybe?

hduncan · 31st May 2009

Hmm, what do you mean exactly about playability?

That it doesnt inspire you when you actually play it?

Maybe there is a small tube amp or something I can buy and crank it? Whats the least expensive but>plugins amplifier I can get?

John Eppstein · 31st May 2009

The problem is that no sim responds to the guitar like a real amp. You don't get the same feel, especially in terms of sustain and feedback.

And if you're already using an amp, what do you need a speaker sim for?

I personally don't think that any of the sims sound any good, either, with the exception of the Ampeg SVX bass amp sim, which doesn't have the same set of problems to cope with.

John Eppstein · 31st May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Hmm, what do you mean exactly about playability?

That it doesnt inspire you when you actually play it?

Maybe there is a small tube amp or something I can buy and crank it? Whats the least expensive but>plugins amplifier I can get?

Many people, myself included, LOVE their Epiphone Valve Junior. 5 whopping watts of class A valve goodness. All the controls you need (off-on switch and volume). Plug it in and it just works!

ManicHouse · 31st May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Hmm, what do you mean exactly about playability?

That it doesnt inspire you when you actually play it?

Maybe there is a small tube amp or something I can buy and crank it? Whats the least expensive but>plugins amplifier I can get?

Vox AC4TV is quite nice for the price. A little boxy, but can drive an external 16ohm cab.

robot gigante · 31st May 2009

Yes, both fail.

Even people who actually do use stuff like Amp Farm regularly will bypass the cabinet simulation to get more mileage out of it.

My advice would be a vintage Fender Champ or Bronco, pimp it out as it needs and crank it.

audiovisceral · 31st May 2009

a peavey 5150/6505 combo is very loud, very 'metal', and quite cheap used.

Insomniaclown · 31st May 2009

I actually have been able to get some pretty good sounds out of amp sims. You can't think of it as being the same sound as micing a guitar amp, because it's not. It's not better or worse, just different, and in situations where cranking an amp and micing it aren't practical, such as an apartment studio, amp sims can be just the ticket.

I have figured out a couple of things while working with guitar rig 3 that have helped me to achieve some killer tones.

1) Good DI. The dry signal should sound good on its own, not dead and lifeless.
2) EQ the signal before it hits the amp sim. You tend to get a lot of harsh high freq distortion. Rolling off the high end on the dry signal takes care of that without the bad sounding artifacts.
3) Reverb. Putting them into a space can make the sound more natural.
4) Put a saturation plug in on an aux, send the sim to it, and mix to taste. This can add a little warmth.

I don't have any issues with the cabinet IR's that came with my software. However, there are tons of free IR's on the internet. You can load the files into a convolution reverb (such as Logics space designer), and have as many cabinets as you want.

Just my 2 cents.

31st May 2009	#1
hduncan Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Fresno, California Posts: 2,013 Thread Starter	Amp Sim vs. Cab Sim? I know there isnt a whole lot of love for Amp sims around here, except maybe for PT's Eleven, but I was wondering: Is it the Amp/Distortion part of the sims that fail to deliver or is it the Cabinet part of it that fails to deliver? The reason I ask is because I am going for some metal guitar sounds and cant afford an amp+cabinet setup, but maybe I can afford "half" of one.. So, if its the distortion that software just cant do, then maybe I get a pedal or some hardware to go between the guitar and computer, or if its the cab, then I can keep the distortion but leave off the cabinet emulation and send the tracks out to a real cabinet.. I have Izotope Trash and the cabinets seem pretty nice, but I've never been able to get the kind of metal sound I want out of it. So, is there any way to get hardware involved in half of the chain to make a significant jump in tone quality? __________________ //Hawk Duncan [2.66Ghz i7 MacBook Pro, 8GB, Logic 9, ProFire2626]

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31st May 2009	#2
audiovisceral Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,546	Get a recording pre like triaxis, then cab sim.

31st May 2009	#3
mdme_sadie Lives for gear Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,070 2 Reviews written	Both ends fail, and both ends win. In terms of playability i've never come across a software Amp Sim that was even semi close to a real amp. However ignore all that for a minute and consider it as merely effect processing and you can create some great tones/sounds for recording with. Probably the most difficult area is going to be the simulation of the distortion/amp itself, you can use IR's and there are a few plugins out there that do a fairly good job of speaker simulation (up to a point), though again all of them to me feel over-compressed, like they're producing caricatures of speaker setups you know, but it's closer and in A/B you'll not notice as much. Bear in mind that most pedals at most only do the preamp end of things, you wont get any poweramp crunch or chewyness so while it'll at least give you instant gratification while playing, which is better than feeling total disconnect, it's still not really the right sound and is going to require quite a lot of work to get the right sound going, you could consider splitting the source, recording via line, and putting the other line to a real but cheap amp so at elast you get the gratification but can then apply whatever sounds you want itb maybe?

31st May 2009	#5
John Eppstein Gear Guru Joined: May 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA. Posts: 10,212 51 Reviews written	The problem is that no sim responds to the guitar like a real amp. You don't get the same feel, especially in terms of sustain and feedback. And if you're already using an amp, what do you need a speaker sim for? I personally don't think that any of the sims sound any good, either, with the exception of the Ampeg SVX bass amp sim, which doesn't have the same set of problems to cope with.

31st May 2009	#8
robot gigante Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2003 Location: from out of nowhere Posts: 4,000 3 Reviews written	Yes, both fail. Even people who actually do use stuff like Amp Farm regularly will bypass the cabinet simulation to get more mileage out of it. My advice would be a vintage Fender Champ or Bronco, pimp it out as it needs and crank it.

31st May 2009	#10
Insomniaclown Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2008 Location: Now in Wellington Posts: 830	I actually have been able to get some pretty good sounds out of amp sims. You can't think of it as being the same sound as micing a guitar amp, because it's not. It's not better or worse, just different, and in situations where cranking an amp and micing it aren't practical, such as an apartment studio, amp sims can be just the ticket. I have figured out a couple of things while working with guitar rig 3 that have helped me to achieve some killer tones. 1) Good DI. The dry signal should sound good on its own, not dead and lifeless. 2) EQ the signal before it hits the amp sim. You tend to get a lot of harsh high freq distortion. Rolling off the high end on the dry signal takes care of that without the bad sounding artifacts. 3) Reverb. Putting them into a space can make the sound more natural. 4) Put a saturation plug in on an aux, send the sim to it, and mix to taste. This can add a little warmth. I don't have any issues with the cabinet IR's that came with my software. However, there are tons of free IR's on the internet. You can load the files into a convolution reverb (such as Logics space designer), and have as many cabinets as you want. Just my 2 cents.