Recording a live band in the studio with quickness!

[Rednose]

My studio has been doing a lot of live bands in the studio, 5-8 hour block for demos.
The musicians are in the main room with 4 separate headphone mixes.
Their amps are in guitar booths and the singer is in a vocal booth.
I’m trying to speed things up between recording, spot punching, and final mix and CD.
I’m using and A &H Mix Wizard and and API lunch box for pres and I have loads of other outboard eq and comps. We’re recording in Cubase 4.
What are your techniques for rapid live recording and final mix short of yelling at the band? Most of the bands have been going over, just trying to speed things up.
I just need a few fx, like verb on the vox and snare.
I was thinking about getting the Presonus Livestudio board just for these gigs, but maybe a template in cubase will help?
Thanks!

[The Byre]

The only REAL way to speed things up, is for the band to be fully prepared.

I would say that about half the bands that want a demo (as opposed to full professionals, who are here for a more realistic time and know what it is that they want) have not prepared all the parts that they are going to play, are not sure what speed and sometimes even which keys to use.

That means that a two-day demo is in reality only done in half a day or less, because the rest of the time, they are doing things that they should have done in rehearsal. It is almost normal for the lead guitarist to not be able to play the solo, but still expect somehow a perfect lead solo to come out of the mix.

Sloppy drummers who just can't keep a beat are the worst. And because they never practice with a metronome, they struggle with a click.

[DeadPoet]

I'd say:

have templates for your computer program which you refine every once in a while, be able to use all of its shortkeys while sleeping/eating/drinking/surfing GS, edit while recording overdubs, know the track sheet and patchbay really really well, be realistic in what to expect from 5h demo's, ...


Herwig

[leaper]

I'd say that you can effectively save time with a few basic things:

Having a good, well tuned drum kit with mics in place. If it really is a good kit, then many drummers will be convinced and will typically use their own snare and cymbals.

Having an assistant who will work so closely with you that ,when you turn around to look for a mic, you'll see that they've already set it up. They will know what compressors you like to use and what ratios, etc. They will jump into your seat when you need to take a break, etc etc.

A permanently installed headphone/talkback system (which you seem to already have) and overstock on headphones and extensions.

A practical DAW template that has basic track labelling, aux routing and possible plug ins (in bypass).

Keep spare sticks, skins, strings, batteries, etc (sell them..don't give them away!!)

Out of these, the well trained assistant will probably save you the most time.

[Steffmo]

The problem I usually see is that the band will book some time, say 6 hours, and then show up with the unrealistic expectation that they can do some crazy number of songs in that amount of time.

The engineer, being a nice guy, finds hiself scrambling like a maniac to get it all done, and when it doesn't happen, lets the session run over an hour or two at no extra charge because the band didn't get done what they wanted.

Rewind. All you ever agreed to do was to work with them for X hours. It sounds like you are charging them a flat fee for a session, but you also need to make it clear that at a certain time they will start incurring overtime charges.

YOU are not responsible for what THEY think they can do, unless there is legitamate down time involved. They also need to understand before a single mic is set what your set policies are. AND that mixdown time is billable as well.

Its unbelievable how many musicians will try to use the "we only recorded for 3 hours" arguement as if they aren't tying up your room and set up and mixdown aren't work for you.

So, in short, the fastest was to speed up a band is to let them know that if they haven't finished what they want to get done by X time, its going to cost them, not you. Suddenly, instead of recording 10 tracks...it will be six. And you might get some life back.

[John Eppstein]

Use analog tape and an analog console - mousing around on a computer screen and shuffling through nested menus is a colossal waste of time and interrupts the workflow.

[Steffmo]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Use analog tape and an analog console - mousing around on a computer screen and shuffling through nested menus is a colossal waste of time and interrupts the workflow.

Really?? I did that for 14 years. Now, if you put all songs into a single project, which you treat like tape you can move as fast or faster than tape.

Just like working in analog, since all the songs are recorded at once, most of the mix can be used from song to song, and most of the exteraneous mousing is gone.

Plus you can save each song;s mix separately so when they call you you complain the solo in song 5 isn't loud enough you can do a fast recall.

[mexicola]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Use analog tape and an analog console - mousing around on a computer screen and shuffling through nested menus is a colossal waste of time and interrupts the workflow.

Amen, brother! I agree 100%!!!

[jasonrodriguez]

+1 for what The Byre said.

The only way to do it properly is to have the band prepared as much as possible. Pre-production is the key to pretty much everything and alleviates most headaches.

[travisbrown]

And recording a band that knows their stuff and how to play live off the floor. I love recording bands live off the floor, but it's got to be there or it's not worth it. The really, really good bands don't even need great monitoring.

Makes me recall the story of Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Texas Flood". Legend has it that the whole album was tracked in a couple takes off the floor in under eight hours from setup to teardown, whole album complete in three days.

They played through the set from beginning to end, went outside for a smoke (and maybe some blow and a snort of whiskey), then came back in and ran through it again from front to back.

I'm recalling this from some liner notes somewhere. There is some badass playing on that album.

Another cool album that was done in a day or so in a couple passes was Bedouin Soundclash's "Mosaic". Little rough, but no harm done to the music.

And thirdly, this has to be the fastest movie soundtrack ever - Neil Young on "Dead Man". He sat in a screening room and watched an edit of the movie, went outside for a smoke, then sat down with his acoustic guitar and recorded the soundtrack while watching it a second time.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Use analog tape and an analog console - mousing around on a computer screen and shuffling through nested menus is a colossal waste of time and interrupts the workflow.

Or if you ain't analogue, I find an HD24 and dedicated external pres very useful for simplifying and expediting setup. This is what I use for my live rig. If the stage and FOH is set up, I can be up and hit record in under ten minutes from the point I wheel the rig in. Pop the lids, plug into power, 24 channels into the XLR splitter, hit record and adjust levels.

I'd look to having a "plug and play" setup as much as possible. Get a dedicated cue setup and always use the same lines for the same types of instruments. Mics don't need to come off stands. This should cut down on your setup time. You'll be 80-90% of the way there.

[slaves666]

When bands come in wanting a quick session, I almost always insist on using my gear(guitars, basses, drums, amps)....that way I know what to expect when the end of the session hits and it's mix time......

I also have a DAW template and some plugin presets that I made on sessions with that gear......works 90% of the time....

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by slaves666

When bands come in wanting a quick session, I almost always insist on using my gear(guitars, basses, drums, amps)....

What do you do with drummers who can only play on their "special" DW drumkit that came off the floor at GC?

[Rednose]

Hey, thanks for the tips guys!
I do have an excelent house Trick drum set.
The only problem with it is the toms are racked with Gibralter hardware and takes alot of setup.
I'm going to see if I can get a mount in the kick drum for the toms.

I also have an assistant... who has been showing up late.
He just got his final warning.

As far as extra hours, I do charge the bands for that. I let them know an hour before there block is up that it looks like its going over.

How much setup time do you give a band?
Its been taking close to two hours to get the band setup and ready to record. I ussually give them 1 hour free setup time.

After that, I think its the way I have the mixes setup that just takes too long and makes it unrealistic to mix quickly, thats what I need the most work on.

I have the UAD-1 card, so I think I'll throw in a couple of verbs and call it a day.

Thanks for the tips, keep them coming!
Matt

[Richard Salino]

Originally Posted by Rednose

How much setup time do you give a band?
Its been taking close to two hours to get the band setup and ready to record. I ussually give them 1 hour free setup time.

Why would you not charge for setup time? Tuning drums, properly positioning mics, tweaking amps, etc. is an integral part to making good records. You're being hired for your skill and knowledge, you should be paid for doing your job.

I suppose giving the band time to setup their equipment is a different story, but I find things get done much faster when the clock's running. And, like Steffmo said, they're tying up your room and your time.

[suedesound]

Mix live to 2-track. Get the mix dialed in as they inevitably screw up the first few takes. Record the multitracks so you can go back and fix something if you really screw up. Mixing FOH and/or for broadcast will help you get used to this. Also having comps/gates/EQ's on each channel on a board in front of you helps this IMO. Don't let the band get picky and don't let them punch in, overdubs only allowed if there's an important part that is impossible to be played live (like the guitarist also plays the keys or something). If the band expects to get a demo in a day it should like them live with a little polish on your end.

[SHIRK]

I'm doing these kinds of sessions on a weekly basis now for our blog, HearYa.com. Kind of a different purpose than you but a similar style of working.

We do it all live in one well treated room. Forget about headphones. Get some monitor wedges going for vox and any instruments that have to be DI'd. The bands will feel more comfortable and you'll spend WAY less time getting everyone happy with what they need to hear. Try to make it as much like their rehearsal space as you can, not like a foreign isolated world (headphones)

The thing that expedites the process for me:

-getting a stage plot/input list prior to the bands arrival so I know what I'll be dealing with. Setting up mics and such is way easier when there aren't a bunch of people in the room.

-using the house drum kit. (we have a great 50's slingerland here that everyone seems to love) I keep it tuned the way I like (to the best of my ability). But I certainly allow the drummer to tweak.

-get comfortable with bleed. Building some simple gobos and using bipolar (figure 8) mics will be a big help when trying to achieve some isolation between instruments.

-use a template in your DAW. I'm on PT's and have it setup so I've got slap and hall reverbs, a drum submix and a monitor cue setup and ready to go when I open the session template. Color code your tracks for quick glances at the daw.

One thing to remember, the quality of the players/band really dictates how well these sessions come off. The bands we have in are on tour so they are used to a quick setup, and more importantly, THEY KNOW THEIR SONGS inside and out. You can always tell who's been out on the road for a few weeks and who just shoved off the day before.

On average, we spend a total of 90 mins from load in to load out. We usually cut 4-5 songs with an occasional do-over, plus we do multi-camera video of the entire session. I then spend the time I need to get the mixes working right for my taste. I don't mess with many effects, just compress, eq and balance till things work. I get a little OCD on this leg of the process...so sometimes I spend more time than I should.

Hope some of that helps.

[Steffmo]

What Suede says is a good point.

First off......do the whole session in a single file. no need to create a new folder for each song. You will probably use much of the mix for all the songs, so this way you don't waste time copying data. Just put it all in one.

Then, sub the whole mix to a stereo audio track and record that in real time. As you refine the mix you might get a few songs where the live mix is fine.

You might run into latency problems....but depending on you rig there may be workarounds. I do it with PTHD, but thats the DSPs working.

[suedesound]

-getting a stage plot/input list prior to the bands arrival so I know what I'll be dealing with. Setting up mics and such is way easier when there aren't a bunch of people in the room.

-using the house drum kit. (we have a great 50's slingerland here that everyone seems to love) I keep it tuned the way I like (to the best of my ability). But I certainly allow the drummer to tweak.

Those both help a lot too, should have mentioned that. Actually get a stage plot/input list any time you can for any session, really speeds up the set up.

SHIRK, we're doing something very similar a couple times a month for radio/internet sometimes with video but depends on the session. Most of the time they have to use our kit as well as amps because they've already loaded into the venue. And we can't waste anytime because they have to get back there for soundcheck. We have to give a 2track to them by the time the band/producer of the show leave so if you have to go back to fix anything you have about half an hour while the band is packing up.

[daveytinners]

+1 for band prep.
+1 for generic band template (daw and room/mics/board/etc) if you know what sounds good at your end of things, you can tweak anything that's not working for you and the band rather than starting from scratch. It's cheating but it can be good for many reasons and the bands are always impressed by the fact that your ready to go almost as soon as they are. You just need to work on putting it all together at speed.
Learn to manage time better when it comes to performances, mainly this means compromising the perfect take, retain integrity but decide when enough is enough and it's time to move on.
Try and edit and mix as much as you can during tracking.

Get a M7 and a smart c1/c2 and belt it through some massive dyn audios (cack band flattery!)

This week I have a uni block booked to do their prouction assessments. I'm engineering and mixing 35 bands in 5 days each a 9 hour day. Each band gets no more than a hour to do it all, it's ridiculous! I can't believe having 20 mins to

[daveytinners]

Mix

(does anyone else have problems trying to post stuff using an iPhone? Always goes jumpy and becomes shit to type)

[LimeMusic]

Originally Posted by Rednose

Hey, thanks for the tips guys!

How much setup time do you give a band?
Its been taking close to two hours to get the band setup and ready to record. I ussually give them 1 hour free setup time.

After that, I think its the way I have the mixes setup that just takes too long and makes it unrealistic to mix quickly, thats what I need the most work on.

The weak link in set up time is usually the band. I understand your wanting to give them a bit of a break on the set up time, but they really are taking up your time (I'm assuming it doesn't take you two hours to set everything up), and giving them a free hour is REALLY cutting them a break. I could understand if it was a big session with a regular customer you're doing a full album for or something. You'd be surprised how fast even the most inexperienced band can set up their stuff if they know they are paying for it right out of the gate.

As far as some actual tips, ditching the headphones might be a great idea. It wouldn't affect the quality of the demo that much, and it will save you TONS of time getting their headphone mixes right (I'm assuming it probably takes a big chunk of time just getting each member satisfied). If you have to have headphones, maybe using a system like the Furman HDS6 where you just give them a feed, and they make their own headphone mix might save time.

But in reality, despite what you do, in the "5 hour demo" thing the band is going to be the biggest contributing factor to wasted time...

[rockstar_josh]

I track to an HD24XR and overdub into Pro Tools. The file transfer occurs during a lunch break, and we just keep on rolling. If time is a real factor I just do it all on the HD24 and burn it to a CDR900 at the end of the day. I also use a MixWizard for monitoring, and I can use the onboard effects to get a little bit of ambience. It's not the greatest mixer by far, but if I use a solid front end and get the best tracks I can, then the back end doesn't seem to matter as much. Then, if the band can wait a day, I can do a more serious mix of their stuff and get it to them fairly quickly.

The Byre is right on about being prepared - I've tracked a well-rehearsed band and done ten songs in a day on a few occasions, with good results. I can get 6 songs most of the time, live instruments and overdub vocals. This seems to be a pretty consistent average. And honestly, I'm just now getting into the clients that are actually good, rehearsed, reliable performers. It makes this job so much more fun!

[Rednose]

Thanks again guys!
The setup time takes two hours for the band to roll in, setup, have an assistant and myself mic them up and get suitable headphone mixes.

I think the headphone amp situation could knock off about a half an hour.
I'm using the Presonus H60 and Cumix off of my MOTU 2408 MK III.
Its incredibly complicated and I don't think a 2nd engineer can get a grasp of it quickly.

So, I think a monitor station would be the best best!
I'll look into the Furman HDS6, not sure exactly what it does.
Is there a headphone station someone could recomend that has 4 inputs with a mini mixer and 6 headphone outs?

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Rednose

My studio has been doing a lot of live bands in the studio, 5-8 hour block for demos.
The musicians are in the main room with 4 separate headphone mixes.
Their amps are in guitar booths and the singer is in a vocal booth.
I’m trying to speed things up between recording, spot punching, and final mix and CD.
I’m using and A &H Mix Wizard and and API lunch box for pres and I have loads of other outboard eq and comps. We’re recording in Cubase 4.
What are your techniques for rapid live recording and final mix short of yelling at the band? Most of the bands have been going over, just trying to speed things up.
I just need a few fx, like verb on the vox and snare.
I was thinking about getting the Presonus Livestudio board just for these gigs, but maybe a template in cubase will help?
Thanks!

The PreSonus StudioLive is a great little board if you're gonna go digital. I generally hate digital consoles and working itb really annoys me - it's soooo slooooowww - but the Presonus is quite intuitive and it has everything you really need for recording live built right in - eq, dynamics control, everything. Plus you don't need to look at any screens or do any mousing to use it - one button will call any channel up into its full channel strip of knobs and it has a fader for every channel, plus masters. I'ts about as fast to work as an analog console and about as much of a no-brainer.

When I saw it at AES it blew me away - much more than the vast majority of big "name" digital consoles.

[SeanG]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

I'd say:

have templates for your computer program which you refine every once in a while, be able to use all of its shortkeys while sleeping/eating/drinking/surfing GS, edit while recording overdubs, know the track sheet and patchbay really really well, be realistic in what to expect from 5h demo's, ...


Herwig

Originally Posted by Contrast Rec

Why would you not charge for setup time? Tuning drums, properly positioning mics, tweaking amps, etc. is an integral part to making good records. You're being hired for your skill and knowledge, you should be paid for doing your job.

I suppose giving the band time to setup their equipment is a different story, but I find things get done much faster when the clock's running. And, like Steffmo said, they're tying up your room and your time.

Originally Posted by Steffmo

What Suede says is a good point.

First off......do the whole session in a single file. no need to create a new folder for each song. You will probably use much of the mix for all the songs, so this way you don't waste time copying data. Just put it all in one.

Then, sub the whole mix to a stereo audio track and record that in real time. As you refine the mix you might get a few songs where the live mix is fine.

You might run into latency problems....but depending on you rig there may be workarounds. I do it with PTHD, but thats the DSPs working.

Originally Posted by LimeMusic

The weak link in set up time is usually the band. I understand your wanting to give them a bit of a break on the set up time, but they really are taking up your time (I'm assuming it doesn't take you two hours to set everything up), and giving them a free hour is REALLY cutting them a break. I could understand if it was a big session with a regular customer you're doing a full album for or something. You'd be surprised how fast even the most inexperienced band can set up their stuff if they know they are paying for it right out of the gate.

As far as some actual tips, ditching the headphones might be a great idea. It wouldn't affect the quality of the demo that much, and it will save you TONS of time getting their headphone mixes right (I'm assuming it probably takes a big chunk of time just getting each member satisfied). If you have to have headphones, maybe using a system like the Furman HDS6 where you just give them a feed, and they make their own headphone mix might save time.

But in reality, despite what you do, in the "5 hour demo" thing the band is going to be the biggest contributing factor to wasted time...

+1 to all

If possible I like to do the drum set-up the night before with a tech and no band, whether it's their drums or mine. Get all the mics and sounds right in a quiet uncluttered studio. The whole thing is more than justifiably billable. After an unstressed set-up you can have a nip of whiskey and sleep easy knowing the biggest time chomping part of the gig is already in the bag.

Great thread



.

[slaves666]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

What do you do with drummers who can only play on their "special" DW drumkit that came off the floor at GC?

If it's a DW, and hopefully the guy can play, it should sound fine once it has new skins and is tuned.

[Rednose]

The Presonus Livestudio board looks cool, but its gonna have to wait.
Have to get the GF her big bling before July 23rd for her BD.

In the meantime, I just got a 24 channel stage snake today for the main room. I'll use the 16 channel for the the Vocal booth.
I want to get a comprehensive wiring system, but it looks like that will have to wait, alot of $$$.

Here are some samples of a few live bands We've recorded recently.

First band, the Chicago Blues Sisters %100 live.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...ainoffools.mp3

2nd Band, The Spinnetics. Music %100 live, vocal overdubs.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...s_finlines.mp3

3rd band, On The Run. Music live, sax overdubs, and vocal overdubs.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...tagelights.mp3

Drums are my Trick house kit on all.

I'd like to hear some of your "Live band in the studio" recordings if you get a chance, thanks!
Matt

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Rednose

The Presonus Livestudio board looks cool, but its gonna have to wait.
Have to get the GF her big bling before July 23rd for her BD.

In the meantime, I just got a 24 channel stage snake today for the main room. I'll use the 16 channel for the the Vocal booth.
I want to get a comprehensive wiring system, but it looks like that will have to wait, alot of $$$.

Here are some samples of a few live bands We've recorded recently.

First band, the Chicago Blues Sisters %100 live.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...ainoffools.mp3

2nd Band, The Spinnetics. Music %100 live, vocal overdubs.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...s_finlines.mp3

3rd band, On The Run. Music live, sax overdubs, and vocal overdubs.
http://supermercadorock.com/MATT/pro...tagelights.mp3

Drums are my Trick house kit on all.

I'd like to hear some of your "Live band in the studio" recordings if you get a chance, thanks!
Matt

I don't suppose it would be possible to hear proper WAVs?

[rockstar_josh]

Originally Posted by Rednose

So, I think a monitor station would be the best best!
I'll look into the Furman HDS6, not sure exactly what it does.
Is there a headphone station someone could recomend that has 4 inputs with a mini mixer and 6 headphone outs?

I have the Furman HDS-6. and I love it! It sends the hp mix via ethernet cable to little remote boxes that clamp onto a mic stand. Everyone has their own box and can control their own volume. The boxes also daisy-chain, which is a great feature. The system can also set up four separate submixes, so each person can control their own mix.