This is crazy. MC77 (hardware) vs. BF76 (plugin)

[E.rOk.stA]

I finally got around to A/B'n the MC77 with the BF76. Yes, hardware vs. plugin, perish the thought. Now, what I use the plugin for primarily is finishing my vocals. I track through my Vintech X73i > Summit TLA-100A. Once in the box, I set the BF76's Attack=6, Release=7, ratio at either 4:1 or 12:1 and adjust the input so that it's taking just shy of 5 dB's off. I swear to you that they are so close it's not funny.

I am seriously upset. I have a decent project studio and am NOT rollin' in the $$$. I get to make a nice purchase maybe 1-2 times a year. I really thought the hardware would blow the plugin away based on all the hoopla here. I guess this is good for all the ITB mixers.

I can't help but wonder if all these big name producers/mixing engineers know this but won't admit that the age of DAWs is taking over.

Granted, I haven't tested this extensively. Maybe when I A/B some crushed drums the differences will be more obvious. The thing is, I rarely have the need to crush drums or overload inputs.

I just don't know if the $$ for the miniscule difference is worth it. Don't get me wrong, I think the MC77 is great. It just kills me that a free plugin can do the same thing for my application.

I can feel the heat coming: "HERESY", they'll scream!

[Mike Brown]

Turns out a lot of big name producers/mixing engineers ARE mixing in the box.

The trend seems to be: Track with awesome hardware. Mix with awesome software (and some hardware...but much less than it used to be).

[arrowood101]

I know there is some praise around here for the MC77. I don't think your test proves anything about itb vs otb. Just that the MC77 isn't the best. Try it with a nice orig. 1176 then you will have different thoughts. Maybe it's just me but I am not a fan of Purple comps that I have heard. Also where you hear the difference between otb and itb is when applying more then 5 dB of reduction. The studio I work for got a pair of purple 500 series comps, I know not exactly the same, and the engineer jokes they sound like a plugin. Obviously they never get used. But I have always felt this way about the MC77 also.

PS If you read this sorry to bring you into this Adam, just thought it was funny since you joke about this.

[EstateMatt]

I'm curious how model makers decide what zero db is in the box compared to analog db.

like how do they allow for headroom?

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by arrowood101

I know there is some praise around here for the MC77. I don't think your test proves anything about itb vs otb. Just that the MC77 isn't the best. Try it with a nice orig. 1176 then you will have different thoughts. Maybe it's just me but I am not a fan of Purple comps that I have heard. Also where you hear the difference between otb and itb is when applying more then 5 dB of reduction. The studio I work for got a pair of purple 500 series comps, I know not exactly the same, and the engineer jokes they sound like a plugin. Obviously they never get used. But I have always felt this way about the MC77 also.

PS If you read this sorry to bring you into this Adam, just thought it was funny since you joke about this.

And I am not positioning ITB vs. OTB, that is kicking a dead horse. I AM positioning the MC77 (hardware) vs. BF76 (plugin) in particular. And I DO like the sound of both, just not the fact that one is $1,650.00 and one is $0.00. I have a funny hunch that yearning for an original 1176 is a waste of my time. ( I am wondering if this is the same with alot of hardware) I have work to do, know what I mean?

[Cameron Johnson]

I think that this test shows that for certain applications, the same results can be achieved either itb or otb. HOWEVER (and thi si a big however), it doesn't show that all itb compression (in this instance) can react in the same way in all circumstances as otb compression.

Now, I know you mentioned that you don't like to slam or overdrive your drums (example) through into your compressor, but likely, that's where the difference is going to occur. Most "high-end" or more expensive hardware units will be able to react in ways that simply cannot be faithfully repoduced by a plugin (yet).

However, I'm glad you've taken the time to show that the same result CAN be achieved, given the circumstances. I'm no die-hard advocate of hardware - I gladly use plugins when they work in that context.

Back to making music :o)

Cheers,
Cam

EDIT: I also use the BF76, and it IS a great free plug!

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by Cameron Johnson

I think that this test shows that for certain applications, the same results can be achieved either itb or otb. HOWEVER (and thi si a big however), it doesn't show that all itb compression (in this instance) can react in the same way in all circumstances as otb compression.

Now, I know you mentioned that you don't like to slam or overdrive your drums (example) through into your compressor, but likely, that's where the difference is going to occur. Most "high-end" or more expensive hardware units will be able to react in ways that simply cannot be faithfully repoduced by a plugin (yet).

However, I'm glad you've taken the time to show that the same result CAN be achieved, given the circumstances. I'm no die-hard advocate of hardware - I gladly use plugins when they work in that context.

Back to making music :o)

Cheers,
Cam

Yeah, I want to stress that this was regarding a specific application. I just expected from all the hardware worship here for it to be a major difference. I did try it on some drums and bass (parallel comp'n) and it did some cool stuff. I still have to get to know it better.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

one is $1,650.00 and one is $0.00.

Where can I get one for $0.00???

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by drBill

Where can I get one for $0.00???

Included with ProTools. (BF76 = Bombfactory 1176 emulation)

[Cameron Johnson]

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

Yeah, I want to stress that this was regarding a specific application. I just expected from all the hardware worship here for it to be a major difference. I did try it on some drums and bass (parallel comp'n) and it did some cool stuff. I still have to get to know it better.

I applaud you (sincerely) on being one of the very few completely honest blokes here. It's a nice breath of fresh air.

[arrowood101]

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

And I am not positioning ITB vs. OTB, that is kicking a dead horse.

I must of miss read you, sorry. Just you went from talking about your comparison and then moved onto producers/engineers and mixing itb vs otb. I defiantly do not want to get involved in an itb vs otb thread.

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

I AM positioning the MC77 (hardware) vs. BF76 (plugin) in particular. And I DO like the sound of both, just not the fact that one is $1,650.00 and one is $0.00.

I pretty much agree. But I don't see it as having anything to do with itb vs otb or hardware vs software, just that the MC77 isn't anything to write home about. Not junk by ANY means just not that exciting, especially in the context you are using it.

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

I have a funny hunch that yearning for an original 1176 is a waste of my time. ( I am wondering if this is the same with alot of hardware) I have work to do, know what I mean?

Wouldn't say you need to yearn or need it to make great sounding music. But if you do get a great orig. 1176 you won't want to let it go. They are way over priced right now though. In context though I don't know if would use an orig 1176 just to add 5 dB of comp on vocals, everyone has there preferences though and this is just one man's.

[robot gigante]

If you honestly can't hear much of a difference, well, is there any way to respond to this without sounding rude?

I mean really.

As far as I am concerned the BF1176, which I have known for years, is borderline unusable, although at one time it was better than most out there. On the other hand, the MC76 here (precursor to the MC77, supposedly sounds the same), which I have also used for years, is one of my favorite pieces of gear.

No, the differences are not slight. I can slam a vocal with the Purple 20db or more with the right settings and it will come out singing, but the most I'd ever want to take off with the BF would be 2 or 3db before the sound starts to fold. The way the Purple responds and the sound that it gets when you drive the input and/or the output are completely unlike anything the plugin comes close to doing. Then there are the horrible gritty artifacts that the plugin adds. And so on.

The fact some people do successful mixes in the box doesn't mean that this specific plugin is any good, much less up to par with the Purple-- that's a real stretch...

Don't know what else to say...

[princeplanet]

Guys who use the HW 1176 most often use it for more than 5db GR, some much more...

[nigel saunders]

[QUOTE=Cameron Johnson;4148096]
Now, I know you mentioned that you don't like to slam or overdrive your drums (example) through into your compressor, but likely, that's where the difference is going to occur. Most "high-end" or more expensive hardware units will be able to react in ways that simply cannot be faithfully repoduced by a plugin (yet).


Cam


There is a guy in Germany who wrote a PhD on hardware v software 1176.
Conclusions-Very little difference on vocals and bass. More obvious on drums.

[amishsixstringe]

You're also hearing your digital conversion when you run your signal out and back in. Try just running a 'loop' out of the box and back in (with no compressor in the signal). That way your D/A/A/D is getting into the picture with both compressors. If your converters suck, don't blame the MC77. I'd say, smash some shit with it and listen....

I'm no "i hate plugins" guy by any means, but the BF76 sucks. I'm sure with some further use you'll enjoy your purchase. I just built an La2a from scratch with original UTC transformers. It was my first "real" compressor, and it makes me want to go back and remix everything I've ever recorded. It does EXTREME amounts of compression without sounding bad. Plugs (that I've found) do not do it as well.

I'm not trying to make this a debate about what is better, because I use whatever tools get the job done, but I'm just giving a note of my recent experience and the fact that both tools have pros and cons. Use the grey peanut between your ears and choose what needs to be used on a track by track basis.

Happy Mixing,

Neil

[Legacy Audio]

A Purple MC77 or UA1176 is the most useful tracking and mixing compressor that I've had the pleasure of using. I haven't come across a single situation where it has been anything less than solid, and I constantly come across times when it just flat out rocks and nothing could top it. The love affair I have for this compressor is second only to my dear beloved tape machines.

Put it on a mono drum room and compress it with all buttons-in and blend it in to taste. If this doesn't make your drums explode with energy, well then I guess we've had it wrong for so many years.

Seriously, get a hardware unit, make a few complete records with it over six months and then come back and tell us the same thing. For me, I won't work in studio without a hardware unit or two.

Personally, the plug-in is worth what you paid for it.

[dubrichie]

i can hear a big difference between the UAD 1176 plugin and my pair of hardware MC-77s.

a BIG difference. a GOOD diiference. but, unfortunately, an EXPENSIVE difference.

i wouldn't even bother with the BF plugins.

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

If you honestly can't hear much of a difference, well, is there any way to respond to this without sounding rude?

I mean really.

As far as I am concerned the BF1176, which I have known for years, is borderline unusable, although at one time it was better than most out there. On the other hand, the MC76 here (precursor to the MC77, supposedly sounds the same), which I have also used for years, is one of my favorite pieces of gear.

No, the differences are not slight. I can slam a vocal with the Purple 20db or more with the right settings and it will come out singing, but the most I'd ever want to take off with the BF would be 2 or 3db before the sound starts to fold. The way the Purple responds and the sound that it gets when you drive the input and/or the output are completely unlike anything the plugin comes close to doing. Then there are the horrible gritty artifacts that the plugin adds. And so on.

The fact some people do successful mixes in the box doesn't mean that this specific plugin is any good, much less up to par with the Purple-- that's a real stretch...

Don't know what else to say...

Again, if you read my posts, you will see that I am talking about a particular application. You don't have to worry about responding without being rude, I highly doubt my feelings will be hurt. We can all say, "maybe it's your converters", or make stupid remarks concerning the quality of my sense of hearing. My ears are fine and what I heard is what I posted. Take it or leave it.

I DO appreciate the encouragement to try it at more extreme settings on drums and if again, you read my posts, you will see that I admit it is doing something cool for them. I also stated the fact that I need to spend more time with it.

Now taking this into consideration, I think it is irresponsable to newer folks on this forum to say the BF76 sucks just 'cause you don't like it (not targeting you, gigante). Like your preference just makes it so? If anybody wants to check what I said for themselves I challenge them to do so.

I just don't think people need to make excuses (for a piece of equipment) as to why it didn't sound the way I expected it to. I have nothing to gain or lose by my post but it is painfully obvious that some of you have tender feelings about this. I'm out, peace.

[JPeters86]

I've recently recorded an album with great hardware, mixed it completely ITB. Very happy with the result

[hankdrummer]

you have to TRACK with the 1176.
plug an ANALOG source into it, not the output of a shitty soundcard, where it won't make any difference.

shit in / shit out

[analogjeff]

Agree that TRACKING with the Purple can be great. That's how we do vocals, and we consistently love the end result. In mixing we usually use some ITB compression (not BF1176) AND some high quality OTB compression (Manley, LA2A...) at another studio. Yes, it would be even better to track with a vintage 1176, but... $$

Bottom line, we think the Purple serves us really well and is well worth the money, and we like it better than the new hardware reissue 1176's.

[skybluerental]

try this:

-run an exceptionally dynamic vocal performance through both units set to medium attack, fast release at 4:1.

-set both units to do about 10-15 db of gain reduction max. and match the level BY EAR.

-listen to them back and forth in solo and in the context of the song.

assuming you have decent reference monitors, if you do not hear a significant difference i would visit your local audiologist.

what you PREFER is simply a matter of taste and great engineers get paid for having "good" taste.

i own both, have done the A/B's and its really not even close to my ears.

[Red 7]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

If you honestly can't hear much of a difference, well, is there any way to respond to this without sounding rude?

I mean really.

As far as I am concerned the BF1176, which I have known for years, is borderline unusable, although at one time it was better than most out there. On the other hand, the MC76 here (precursor to the MC77, supposedly sounds the same), which I have also used for years, is one of my favorite pieces of gear.

No, the differences are not slight. I can slam a vocal with the Purple 20db or more with the right settings and it will come out singing, but the most I'd ever want to take off with the BF would be 2 or 3db before the sound starts to fold. The way the Purple responds and the sound that it gets when you drive the input and/or the output are completely unlike anything the plugin comes close to doing. Then there are the horrible gritty artifacts that the plugin adds. And so on.

The fact some people do successful mixes in the box doesn't mean that this specific plugin is any good, much less up to par with the Purple-- that's a real stretch...

Don't know what else to say...

BF76 is not even close for me.

[Vum]

I'm pretty underwhelmed by the 77 myself. If I'd bought the hardware unit and did an A/B comparison with the BF76 and was non plussed by the results, I'd be pretty upset too.

At least you can recoup a good portion of your money by selling the MC77. If you had bought a plug-in of equal value and equal aggravation, you're unlikely to make enough off of a sale to buy one at the same or similar price point.

I use the BF 76 in mixes where I'm already using my other compressors. It's not "bad" but I wouldn't feel comfortable with it on a drum buss in the same way I would with other compressors. It usually gets "shouty vocal bus" compression duties in my rap mixes or maybe as a distorted parallel send effect for a rock track - but I don't use it on program material that is "intimate" or hi-fi sounding.

[bing81]

Originally Posted by Red 7

BF76 is not even close for me.

And here.

All good tips above, but try running through the MC77 (or 76) and then the BF76 with NO compression (i.e. zero). One has a sound and does something, something magical most of the time. The plugin ... ouff.

I have a range of great plugs that I'm happy to use, some of which do things that my MC76 doesn't .. but there's no plugin I have that does what my MC76 does.

B

[Cameron Johnson]

Originally Posted by nigel saunders

Cam


There is a guy in Germany who wrote a PhD on hardware v software 1176.
Conclusions-Very little difference on vocals and bass. More obvious on drums.

Isn't that what I said? ...drums will yield more obvious differences? Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

[amishsixstringe]

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

Now taking this into consideration, I think it is irresponsable to newer folks on this forum to say the BF76 sucks just 'cause you don't like it (not targeting you, gigante). Like your preference just makes it so? If anybody wants to check what I said for themselves I challenge them to do so.

So, you're obviously referring to me. I said it sucks. In my opinion, it does suck. I could be wrong, but that's one man's take on the thing. No, it doesn't 'make it so'. A lot of people think Stratocasters suck, but that doesn't mean it actually sucks. It is just an opinion. Some people take shit too personally and walk on eggshells around here sometimes.

Don't make statements that people who are new to the board should not have opinions either. Just because I don't make 400 posts per day doesn't mean I don't know what's up. Doesn't mean I do either, but give me a break. I've been doing this long enough to hear that a crappy plugin doesn't do the same thing as a box. It's just physically not possible.

I'm not here to start an argument, I'm just saying be careful with what you post on the internot. I made a statement that could be taken however you wish. You were the one coming here fishing for someone to agree with you. When people who don't tell you so, you can't get pissy.

Neil

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

So, you're obviously referring to me. I said it sucks. In my opinion, it does suck. I could be wrong, but that's one man's take on the thing. No, it doesn't 'make it so'. A lot of people think Stratocasters suck, but that doesn't mean it actually sucks. It is just an opinion. Some people take shit too personally and walk on eggshells around here sometimes.

Don't make statements that people who are new to the board should not have opinions either. Just because I don't make 400 posts per day doesn't mean I don't know what's up. Doesn't mean I do either, but give me a break. I've been doing this long enough to hear that a crappy plugin doesn't do the same thing as a box. It's just physically not possible.

I'm not here to start an argument, I'm just saying be careful with what you post on the internot. I made a statement that could be taken however you wish. You were the one coming here fishing for someone to agree with you. When people who don't tell you so, you can't get pissy.

Neil

Relax.

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

try this:

-run an exceptionally dynamic vocal performance through both units set to medium attack, fast release at 4:1.

-set both units to do about 10-15 db of gain reduction max. and match the level BY EAR.

-listen to them back and forth in solo and in the context of the song.

assuming you have decent reference monitors, if you do not hear a significant difference i would visit your local audiologist.

what you PREFER is simply a matter of taste and great engineers get paid for having "good" taste.

i own both, have done the A/B's and its really not even close to my ears.

I said I was taking just shy of 5dB's off. I'll try your settings. Based on the criteria I laid out in my first post, there was minimal difference. I'm gathering that the more I push it, the more of a difference I'll hear between the two.

Believe me, I WANT it to sound better. I've planned this purchase for awhile. Alot of research and time went into this.

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by hankdrummer

you have to TRACK with the 1176.
plug an ANALOG source into it, not the output of a shitty soundcard, where it won't make any difference.

shit in / shit out

I did try TRACKING with it as well. My Summit TLA-100A sounds sweeter to me and half the clients who made a blind choice between the two. Maybe it's a rap / hip-hop thing. It seems the most people that like it record/mix rock.