Embarrasing question I should know... Tube pre vs Tube mic

[Big_Bang]

Hi Slutzzzzssss...


I am quite embarrassed. Because I should know this.

Build quality asside, mic/pre choice asside, "what sound are you looking for" asside...

If you feed a non-tube mic into a high end tube channel strip... is this the same as having a good tube mic into a transparent pre?

Or is the tube-character of a tube-mic due to it having the valve before goes down the XLR ?

Like with a guitar amp, there is the pre section and amp section, so sonically quite different design. But a channel strip/pre has it's purpose to take the low level signal up to line level, not amplify to the speakers, so the method of amplification is completely different.

any thoughts?

[gainreduction]

The sound of a tube mic is the interaction of (many things but mainly) the capsule, the tube and the output transformer. While you can get flavour from a pre it won´t make a solid state microphone behave and sound like a classic tube design.

And it´s not a stupid question at all.

[Big_Bang]

Well it is in the sense I really feel amateurish asking this. I really should know the answer to this one. But hey, feel no shame in it, totally different things.

thaks for your words

Anyway...

I want to buy new gear for my personal home setup.

I have recorded with several tubed pre's. I do notice the naturally ocurring harmonics playing their thing... bring in variable impedance and wow, can you really make tone!

But I have little experience with tube mics, being the ones I used more expensive than both my previous cars... in extremy well treated rooms. and they were the no brainer setups, Neumanns on vox, c12's on a C3 etc.. So what I am getting at is;

Though I know the pre wont warm up in a "vintagy" sort of way, nor is that my goal, what would you suggest.

- Buy a decent condenser + decent tube mic (for vocals)
- Buy 1 or 2 very good condenser and feed it into the tubed channel strip and crank until just before distortion.

This will be mainly for an acoustic project I will be producing for a singer/songwriter, at home, where I have a pretty decent treatment.

[Dean Roddey]

Condenser and tube mic aren't mutually exclusive. Condenser mics are a kind of mic and they can be solid state or tube based.

One very popular tube based condensor is the Pearlman TM-1, which lots of us have and really like. Search for threads and you'll see the level of satisfaction with this mic.

You may not want to pair a tubey sounding condensor with a tubey sounding pre-amp necessarily. It might be a bit too much. The Pearlman sounds great with various solid state pres, such as the Great River and A-Designs P-1, which are the two I can comment on since I own them but many other folks who have the TM-1 also do and like these combinations. The GR can provide a lot of harmonic distortion if you want, or be fairly clean if you want.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Sir.Audio

Hi Slutzzzzssss...


If you feed a non-tube mic into a high end tube channel strip... is this the same as having a good tube mic into a transparent pre?

Or is the tube-character of a tube-mic due to it having the valve before goes down the XLR ?

any thoughts?

It's common sense that tubes sound warm, and transistor based equipment is somewhat transparent/clean....sorry to disappoint you but this is wrong. What really matters is the design...

In other words, the fact a circuit is implement with tubes or op-amps doesn't say anything about its sonic characteristcs. A tube mic can sound really clean and bright (SE Z5600 comes to mind now, one of the brightest mics I've ever heard) or a FET based preamp like a 1073 can sound "tubey" (always refering to that above mentioned wrong common sense) and warm. Forget tubes and transistors, rent the equipment you think you may like, test it and keep what serves you best.

[piano]

In my experience, with my equipment, under my vocals....... (hey, do I have enough dis-qualifiers there!! YMMV Bull *&^% ) I find that I get more harmonic richness coming from the TUBE PRE than the TUBE MIC when I switch them around with other non - tube gear. MY millage DON'T Vary... (HEH! poor english for emphasis!).

Gear I use for my conclusion:
TUBE:
Lawson Tube Mic
Pendulum Tube Mic (with the Gain at 45)

NON TUBE:
Millennia PHV-3D Pre
DPA Omni mics
Royer 122's
AKG 414

[Chaellus]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

It's common sense that tubes sound warm, and transistor based equipment is somewhat transparent/clean....sorry to disappoint you but this is wrong. What really matters is the design...

In other words, the fact a circuit is implement with tubes or op-amps doesn't say anything about its sonic characteristcs. A tube mic can sound really clean and bright (SE Z5600 comes to mind now, one of the brightest mics I've ever heard) or a FET based preamp like a 1073 can sound "tubey" (always refering to that above mentioned wrong common sense) and warm. Forget tubes and transistors, rent the equipment you think you may like, test it and keep what serves you best.

i always find that hilarious...most of the tube designs are crystal clear transparent nothing warm about it......i Find with transitors and transformers is where you get most of the mojo

[~ufo~]

first of all the only stupid question is one left unasked.

that aside I think there are hardly are any tube mics out there specifically voiced to produce a lot of harmonic distortion. I'd imagine the tube stage is set up so that it's not clipping at normal operating levels. That means that in general, if you use a tube mic as intended, you are basically operating in the most linear range of the tube, in the green and yellow range of the meters, so to speak. The "tube character" of the mic will then pronounce itself in a rather subtle way, a silkiness to the top end for instance.

Now a tube pre gives you the option to choose the operating range of the tube stage, do you want to stay in the green meters? peak at the yellows or fully clip the thing at the peaks to get a really audible saturation? that is the most impart practical difference I feel.

Like a previous poster mentioned, tube doesn't mean warm by any means, I therefore reject the common statement that a tube mic into a tube pre can be a bit much....
I mean, yes it can be if they are both bass heavy, or both clipping etc.
But in normal operating range of quality tube equipment there should be NOTHING "a bit much" about consecutive tube equipment. That just seems like a modern statement that the engineers of old would rightly chuckle over.

but of course, your popcycles may vary

[TheBlade]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

i always find that hilarious...most of the tube designs are crystal clear transparent nothing warm about it......i Find with transitors and transformers is where you get most of the mojo

I'm right there with ya on that statement!

Tubes, if slightly driven can give the harmonics and compression that we most of us love, but the warmth is in the transformers!!!!

The pre amps I use the most!!!
Telefunken V72's = Haufe transformers
Scully 280's = UTC transformers
Altec 1592b's = Altec transformers

[dangoudie]

I own an SE Gemini II and 2 x SE Z5600a MkII's. The former is dual tube and the latter single tube design.

They are both bright mics but they have a certain weight (notice I'm not saying warmth) about them. I've used various SE condensors and they are all far too bright but the tube models I have are well balanced and flattering.

Having said that, I generally find U87s to have the same balance and flattery.

As far as tube amps go...I have found them harder to control for regular use but they sound incredible when pushed for effect. I have API's that have the versatility to sound crystal clear or thick and grungy all the way to terrifying. Tube pre's I have used such as Drawmer 1960's are great if you want a tubey sound but I find them a bit of a one-trick-pony. JMO