Taylor Swift vocal with Avant

[Heartfelt]

Due to the hostility in response to disagreeing in some threads lately...
Disclaimers: I am not crticizing her nor her voice. I am not argueing the validity of the Avant line or of the CV-12 in professional recording.

Point:
When I listen to "Love Story", which I think is a great song, I hear something that is unsual to me in most vocals I listen to. There seems to be a buildup in the high mids that comes in and out, through the song.

Questions:
Do you hear it?

Where abouts in the freq-range DO you hear it?

What do you "think" the cause is? (Is it typical of young ladies' voices? Is it the mic? Is it a mis-match of her voice and the mic?)

If it is typical of young ladies, what tools or methods do you use in processing? I seem to remember Pensado using the C1 with a particular frequency on C Aguilera's voice. Are there others?

This is an attempt to bounce off you guys something I think I hear and get to a working understanding.

Thanks for your insight and/or opinions,
Rob

[Heartfelt]

bump

[GZsound]

I will admit to only hearing her sing one time, on Letterman.

I shut her off after about two minutes. There isn't a microphone made that could make someone who cannot carry a tune in a bucket sound good..

[bradley]

Rob,

I have the album and agree with the high mid vocal statement. On my monitors it the vocal sometimes sounds a bit too forward but then in some way I quite like it! I assume it was deliberate choice either by using that mic or eq!

[joelpatterson]

How long will it be before a band comes along and names itself "Swift Taylor"?

[dhiltonlittle]

the vocals are unlistenablely harsh on that record. did they really use the avant? it doesn't sound like her voice is that harsh. it seems like an engineering decision that didn't quite work out.

[Track 7]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Due to the hostility in response to disagreeing in some threads lately...
Disclaimers: I am not crticizing her nor her voice. I am not argueing the validity of the Avant line or of the CV-12 in professional recording.

Point:
When I listen to "Love Story", which I think is a great song, I hear something that is unsual to me in most vocals I listen to. There seems to be a buildup in the high mids that comes in and out, through the song.

Questions:
Do you hear it?

Where abouts in the freq-range DO you hear it?

What do you "think" the cause is? (Is it typical of young ladies' voices? Is it the mic? Is it a mis-match of her voice and the mic?)

If it is typical of young ladies, what tools or methods do you use in processing? I seem to remember Pensado using the C1 with a particular frequency on C Aguilera's voice. Are there others?

This is an attempt to bounce off you guys something I think I hear and get to a working understanding.

Thanks for your insight and/or opinions,
Rob

Quite honestly Rob I thought that you were out to bash the CV-12, a microphone which I like very much. HOWEVER, with the truthfulness and intellect shown in this post, I understand where your coming from. I DO hear what your hearing and my thinking is leading me to believing that they mis-EQ'd her voice and the mastering guy was asleep on this one, LOL....
We do have the same taste with using the Audio Technica AT4047 mic and I believe that we both like that mic.

One thing for sure, I've gained a new respect for your ear, It's damn good buddy.thumbsup

[sweetmojo]

Definitely there, around 3.5kHz me thinks. Good ear!!

[Jack Ruston]

There are a couple of parts where it pokes a tiny bit too hard but I like that charachter for her voice. It gives it urgency and pace. It's certainly a bold move in a certain direction and couldn't be described as 'natural' but personally I think it works on this record in the same way that say, Norah Jones's totally opposite vocal sound works on hers.

J

[Heartfelt]

Good point Jack. Maybe it can't be called wrong but "not natural" seemed ok to say.

What got me thinking was driving along listening to the song,
hearing the spots where it pokes a bit and reflecting back on
a thread James Lugo had about recording young ladies and
how they had some inherent tones. He was looking for the
right mic for a situation.

No intention of bashing, just wondering if anyone else heard this.
Thanks for the feedback guys
Rob

[illacov]

I checked out the CD a week or so ago and the arrangements didn't strike me as overly dense, so I kind of thought the mic was a good match for her voice to a point and then it took off somewhere that I didn't really enjoy, freq response we're speaking here.

In the high mids I would have preferred something smoother, perhaps what we're hearing is more of the processing that was done than anything?

I would like to think that only subtractive eq would be used on a female vocal into this mic due to its extended highs.

Then again, starting with something darker and adding a little mojo in the high mids with a really nice EQ may have gotten some less strenuous results.

I found the sibilance to be immediate, thats for sure. Overly breathy. The vocals definitely cut right thru the mix though, easy to hear, almost way too up front for the style.

It seems like with this genre you tend to hear vocals go more in the smooth smoky direction with a 47 styled tone or maybe to the other end of the spectrum less of a C12 and more of a U87.

Perhaps they wanted to avoid the good ol C800G and try the Avant instead? Got close enough to what they wanted and said hey it sounds good the way it is. Go figure.

Ive never tracked with any 10k mic before on a singer so they must have had ALOT of clearance before they said print the song with a 500 dollar mic. Obviously they got alot of thumbs up from the right people.

I'm still chasing the U67 and worn out (brighter sounding) U47 sound myself lol.

Peace
Illumination

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by illacov

perhaps what we're hearing is more of the processing that was done than anything?


Peace
Illumination

I think this may hit the mark- I have the avantone cv12 and it is a bright mike that is very present.

I also agree that for me the songs are good-present/airy but at the most dynamic points in the song thereis this edge that presents that is a bit hairy.

I wonder whether it was the compressor/s used and settings, whether in tracking/mix/mastering- which caused this hairiness on the more dynamic clampdowns.

Taylor Swift and hairyness-the PR guys will be happy.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[illacov]

Don't get me wrong I like the CV12 overall but the mic has something about it that I just can't get around.


I would love to hear a nice CK12 capsule or similar in there. Then again, it may have something as simple as the tube used. The CV12 ships with multiple tubes.

Maybe a tube with less gain might have been in order?

Asagaai, would you use your James over the CV12 (song dependent) and then try boosting highs with an EQ? Maybe the Arabella??

Both to me stick out as mics I would put on a female vocalist that was a little back from the mic and could belt out a little as well. Maybe the rounder tone would kind of give the female belter a little mush that we might not like?? But you could always insert a hipass on the sidechain of whatever compressor you might be tracking with and bring some of the highs back out, plus a little parallel comp and some fader riding?

I still think you can't go wrong with a U67, maybe with some tickling in the air bands. I'm just a sucker for old school stuff though. I'm thinking she would have sounded good into a u67 (or similar sounding/voiced mic) with a clean preamp into a colored comp doing very little gain reduction. Get the perfect axis position so that the esses weren't crazy and just run with it.

I wonder what the choices were mic wise?

Ive always tried to match the vocalist to the mic but also to the song. One would think they would have said ok the CV12 works for this song and the XY mic works for her on this song, versus CV12 on EVERY song.

Even Norah Jones was using a different mic on different songs on her hit record if I recall.

I wonder why they didn't approach it this way??

Peace
Illumination

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by illacov

Don't get me wrong I like the CV12 overall but the mic has something about it that I just can't get around.


Asagaai, would you use your James over the CV12 (song dependent) and then try boosting highs with an EQ? Maybe the Arabella??

Peace
Illumination

Illacov- I also really like the CV12- has a "sound" for sure- but I think you would need care on compressors used and settings.

Yeah- the James- for that modern bright sound -your idea about using it with a shelf boost has a lot of merit- I will need to give it a go. I mean the James has a classy sound so if it takes a high shelf boost well- may well have a mike with that bright airness with a classy sheen (whereas the CV12 has that cheapness or tartiness to it -you know - hooks you in but gets tiresome after a while)

I would not use the Arabella-(vintage/huge headroom for big dynamics) that has a bright edge in upper mids which can be brilliantly aggressive would not take well to hi shelf boosting IMHO.



GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[illacov]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Illacov- I also really like the CV12- has a "sound" for sure- but I think you would need care on compressors used and settings.

Yeah- the James- for that modern bright sound -your idea about using it with a shelf boost has a lot of merit- I will need to give it a go. I mean the James has a classy sound so if it takes a high shelf boost well- may well have a mike with that bright airness with a classy sheen (whereas the CV12 has that cheapness or tartiness to it -you know - hooks you in but gets tiresome after a while)

I would not use the Arabella-(vintage/huge headroom for big dynamics) that has a bright edge in upper mids which can be brilliantly aggressive would not take well to hi shelf boosting IMHO.



GJ
Newcastle/OZ

Well the Arabella seems like it wouldn't need any eq in that neighborhood. I was thinking with the Arabella you would just find the right placement which in many ways is better than any EQ. I would think you can get a classy sort of sultry sound out of a Taylor Swift with good placement. Maybe a slight off axis placement with the Arabella? It seems like it might be good on nasally or singers with a high register voice. Placement placement.

Plus the Arabella sort of seems like it would take a vocalist who likes to belt alot better.

I was actually chatting with the guys at Avant a few days ago. Nice people over there! Their new mic looks cooler than shit. Its too bad I'm tied up in 4 mics getting built from scratch right now.

Peace
Illumination

[gsilbers]

maybe you guys already figures out which mic.. im to laz to read all the replys.


but i heard something similar when using the u87 when i worked for a top producer here in hollywood. of course he had cabinets filled with any mic posible and THE u67 that records beaty boys, guen steffany/ no doubt etc... .. ( crap , i think i drop something... e)
so when i heard the u87 i immediately noticed a 1-3kish (not golden ears over here :( )
notchy EQ type of sound.. as in lirics will stick to that area and with compresison it was more noticeable. almost seemed that there was harmonic distoriotn only in that freq area.
but i havent heard that song but reads similar..
my 2C

[Track 7]

It's very simple to change the brightness of the CV-12 if you would like to do so. Yes, I own it. I've had 4 different tubes in it (none of the included ones, in fact I find the factory installed tube a bit too bright for some voices) and all 4 of the tubes I've used change the character of the mic. It's a difference that you can hear in A/B tracks. If you want to make it less bright simply install a NOS RCA 12AY7 and you will tame it while not losing the openness that everyone likes in this mic. Other "dark" tubes yield the same type of audio results.

The above is my experience with the Avant CV12 and after using it for 2 years I find it very useful. It does have a character that I can't get out of the other LDC's that I also use regardless of what it costs or where it's made. No matter which artist steps up to the mic I usually put up 4 different ones and choose the best one "by ear." I just listen and compare tracks.
That's what works for me.