Recording acoustic gtr/vocals with MOJO!

[jimcroisdale]

Hi all,

A good friend of mine is a fantastic singer and acoustic guitarist. His playing and singing are incredibly dynamic in both volume and tempo - his rubato feel is brilliant.

He records little demos in his flat and I think they sound 80% there - not too much going on so that the charater of his voice can really be heard.

It's definately NOT pop and sounds great with no compression at all!

Recently he's been working with a producer and today I heard the first finished track. He wasn't pleased when I told him that it sounded like a cross between Dolly Parton and a love scene from The Dukes of Hazzard.

His voice was there, compressed, and struggling for space with the four guitars, percussion, pedal steel, harmonica et al. The timing has been bashed flat. The whole thing sounds totally 'Nashville' and somewhat characterless. No doubt the producer loves it, but Jonny is a real artist and has had someone else's vision pushed on him when it was not really necessary. I think he fell for the whole 'big production' sound, which is easily done I suppose.

So i told him: Your voice, timing and dynamics are what make you unique. Lets play to those strengths instead of treating them as problems and using studio techniques to 'solve' them like this producer has done.

So obviously I've opened my big mouth and now I need to do the business. I'm thinking I'll definately need to record him singing/playing at the same time, in a really nice acoustic space.

Where to start here? Separate mics? Overall stereo?

Any help will be greatly appreciated as usual!

I will post the before and after of this tune when I can get them both.

Cheers,

Jim

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

I'm thinking I'll definately need to record him singing/playing at the same time

Why?

Which brings up a great discussion. If his dynamics come from his overall performance I'm with you.

I like to concentrate on getting a great acoustic guitar sound and, for me, that's a pretty serious piece of business on its own.

Love to hear some pro opinions on that part of this discussion.

[jimcroisdale]

His timing is so loose I don't think he'd be able to follow his own guitar playing with cans on and get it bang on.

It's all about the vibe with this guy.

I can sacrifice 'perfect sound' if the vibe is there.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

I can sacrifice 'perfect sound' if the vibe is there.

[babydaddymusic]

You can use two types of approaches (by the way, I have worked with someone JUST like this. He could not sing to his own guitar or my guitar for anything. BUT, when he has a guitar in his hand and he is singing, he really has something. His timing sucks though.

1) Get your favorite LDC. Use a little compression on the way in. I am assuming he plays the guitar louder than he sings. Put the mic up high and angle it in from his right hand side so that the diaphragm points somewhat down the guitar neck direction but is about level with his mouth. So it's closer to his mouth than the guitar.
Just have him do his thing. Don't compress very much at all.
If you have an EQ with a sweepable mid, you can really dial a good intimate sound in.

2) You can use an LDC to record the voice and and SDC to record the guitar and use foam to act as a reflection filter from the other mic and source.

The most important thing is to capture the vibe. All you need is ears.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

I'm thinking I'll definately need to record him singing/playing at the same time, in a really nice acoustic space.

Where to start here? Separate mics? Overall stereo?

Absoultely and definitely record him playing and singing at the same time. Splitting that up can have the effect of recording a pianist one hand at a time (you get my point) but in the end it's the artist that should decide which way works best for him.

What works great for me is using a SM7b on the voice and something like a Beyer M201 on acoustic guitar. The SM7b will practically have no guitar spill and the portion that it DOES have is actually enhancing the sound, same with the M-201. Actually I own 2 SM7b's but it's just now that I realize that I've never tried using these together for the task here.....the SM7b is definitely a great mic for acoustic guitar so that surely would be worth a try.

Getting a great performance is a million times more inportant than 'perfect separation' and since both the guitar and the voice WILL make the final mix you might as well capture it right from the beginnning. Especially so since his rubato still depends on voice/guitar interaction!


And if you have a nice sounding room that's half the battle....

[Unagi]

Here's a test recorded last night with a Wunder CM7 GT (M7) (into an LA-3A), and a Beyer M160. Treated room, but nowhere near great acoustics. Still, I'm certain someone who knew what they were doing could work magic with this setup given a great performer. We have very little idea what we're doing, but these two mics in combo are phenomenal!

And personally I'm liking the bleed--I say don't fight it...

[dudge]

When tracking vox and acoustic at the same time, I have had the best luck with an LDC in figure 8 on the acoustic with the null of the fig 8 pattern pointed at the vocalist's mouth, and an LDC in figure 8 on the vocal with the null of the fig 8 pattern pointed at the guitar. The bleed is way reduced between the two.

[Eric Greedy]

my first question is the song / arrangement at it's bare bones... capturing it is the easy part.

[jimcroisdale]

Cheers for the info guys.

Perhaps I should let you know what mics I have?

Rode NT2 (original)
2x Rode NT1 (original)
AKG C3000
3x SM57
SM58
AKG D112
ATPro 25 stereo condenser

What I'm thinking is set up the NT2 and AT25 quite close for an intimate sound with a stereo option. Then, have the 2x NT1's as a stereo 'room' pair at a fair distance away, depending on where the room sounds best.

I have access to a large wooden school hall shaped like a 50p piece - supposed to sould really good!

Jim

[rico52]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

I can sacrifice 'perfect sound' if the vibe is there.

What exactly is perfect sound? I am not trolling either. Think about it.
You have a different approach than the other guy who worked with him.
Try your approach and see how it works out.

[timray]

well, I'm one of those guys. I play and sing best together, my timing sucks, and I don't like headphones or a click track. What works for me is to rehearse the song with a roots oriented bass player who has good timing and then play it live. The bass is great to play with as it keeps time, dynamics and the emotion of the song going all at the same time. Keep a low bass volume in the (great) room and also run the bass direct. If no bass is required in the song, then I just wear a headphone with poor isolation on one ear for the DI bass only. If i wear both headphones and hear the mix, I'm thinking about me and the recording technique, not the song. So I put 176s on the vocal and guitar mics so I don't have to worry so much about keeping a steady distance from the mics. Tried all kinds of separation techniques, like barriers, clicks, overdubs, but they got in the way. Dicked around with it all for months. I ended up doing the final guit vox mix with mic selection and placement and performance technique druing tracking. Lucky my mic locker is really high end and the comps are good enough to work and be transparent. And there you have it, an un self conscious live solo performance that's fun to do, in time, that sounds great. Then, if I want to build tracks, it's easy. But if I need to create a vibe from a perfectly recorded and separated song sterilized with a click track and self consciousness, no can do. I like MS for the guit vox, either a 251 m - 122v s, or a u67 m - SM2 s. Funny, I got great gear thinking it was primarily for the pristine sound, and ended up using it primarily to have fun and preserve the performance, and still get pristine sound. I like it. But then, I'm a songslut too. PS to OP: not really a 'pro' anymore, do it now for love only. But you could get that set up pretty quick, just have to let the artist hear what it sounds like before the take so there is confidence it will sound good, and then ditch the headphones. Best to take a break between the sound check and the performance. And don't let him come into the control room after a take and hear it or the self consciousness comes back. Wait until whatever songs are done for that particular session. It's a different way of doing it for sure, depends on the outcome you want. Cheers.

[IainDearg]

As a self-recordist, I record my acoustic guitar and vocal separately. There are no other instruments. I acknowledge that this will not bring the last ounce of vibe and does result in the illusion of a performance. Nevertheless, the advantages of being able to seamlessly edit (occassional ) fluffs and comp the vocal track for "best" results far outweigh these. I am also not constrained when balancing voice and guitar and differentially EQ-ing each when beneficial.

Nevertheless, if I were being "produced" by a 3rd party with hours of studio time at his disposal for retakes (I'm not the cleanest player on the planet) then I would have no objection to recording complete performances for performance integrity and vibe.

[Hammer Mark]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

What I'm thinking is set up the NT2 and AT25 quite close for an intimate sound with a stereo option. Then, have the 2x NT1's as a stereo 'room' pair at a fair distance away, depending on where the room sounds best.

I think you should have one mic dedicated to the vocal -- an SM7 or RE20 would probably be best, but the SM57 you already have will do as well. Whatever you do for the guitar and the room, you'll still want to be able to treat the vocal separately and a good dynamic makes that possible. Alternatively, the dual fig-8 approach sounds reasonable, but I've never tried it myself.

[Unagi]

I would probably start by choosing one of the LDC's and placing it about 3-4 feet out, slightly to one side and slightly above (basically just move the mic around until it captures all of the vocal nuance as well as some room and the full guitar profile, but backgrounded to the vox); then close mic the guitar with an sm57 slightly angled to the opposite side. Or, LDC directly center and slightly above and back about 3 feet, and close/mid stereo guit w/ 2 sm57s?

Of course this depends a lot on the relative volumes and dynamics of the guitar and vox, as well as vocal technique, character, etc. Maybe a unidirectional dynamic would be best on vox here...

Craig Street talks about how he recorded Chris Whitley's album "Dirt Floor" in a workshop full of motorcycle parts using just a Speiden stereo ribbon mic. It's a great sounding record. Craig Street: STUDIO ENVIRONMENTALIST ( he also talks about it in this video, 56 minutes in: Philoctetes - Deep Listening: Why Audio Quality Matters )

(Take these suggestions with a healthy pinch of whatever seasoning you prefer. I'm still relatively new to this. In fact, I came into this thread looking for tips myself--which I found. Yay!)

[Karloff70]

I'd go with the M/S and get him playing without cans.......if you need to get him in the same timing area between takes YOU can wear the cans with a relevant click countin and count him in an 8 bar to set him off in the same sort of tempo.
Get the C3000 and move around with cans on while he's playing and singing to find your 'spot' where it sounds good and balanced (not too close, about a meter or two out). Then hang the NT2 on top sideways in fig8. Decode in the DAW. I'd also put the 57 a foot or so from his mouth (somewher he's naturally pointing his face when singing), not so much for a vocal sound, but to use as reverb/effect feed for vocal efx that you don't want on everything.
Then put your main verb on the NT2 (side mic) only. Feel the back open up and the front stay focused. Then you can add little touches of efx on the 57 if you need to create more interest on the vox, and maybe compress it slightly.....have fun.....

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Unagi

Craig Street talks about how he recorded Chris Whitley's album "Dirt Floor" in a workshop full of motorcycle parts using just a Speiden stereo ribbon mic. It's a great sounding record. Craig Street: STUDIO ENVIRONMENTALIST ( he also talks about it in this video, 56 minutes in: Philoctetes - Deep Listening: Why Audio Quality Matters )

That's one of my fave records! Incredible vibe and intensitity, too bad that Chris Whitley is no longer with us!

The Royer SF-12 is based on the Speiden mic that Street/Whitley used, as far as I know it's identical to that design.

I think that recording 'Dirt Floor'-style can work great if you have an artist that is 100% in control of the dynamics and sound. I guess it's like the 2 mic technique used on 'When the Levee breaks'. With players like Bonham or Whitley it can be incredible, with lesser talents or more insecure performers it might be a recipe for diaster though!

BTW, I listened to that whole panel discussion you posted the link to above a while ago. Really worth the time and besides Craig Street, there are other greats in there like Kevin Killen and Greg Calbi..... thumbsup

[gwailoh]

Jim, if you don't already have it, rent or buy the "Classic Albums" DVD series volume on Who's Next, and study Pete's solo acoustic performance of Won't Get Fooled Again. Has all the dynamics and feel you discuss, and the hyper-simple mic setup is clearly visible. Hope this helps!

[chk027]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Hi all,

A good friend of mine is a fantastic singer and acoustic guitarist. His playing and singing are incredibly dynamic in both volume and tempo - his rubato feel is brilliant.

He records little demos in his flat and I think they sound 80% there - not too much going on so that the charater of his voice can really be heard.

It's definately NOT pop and sounds great with no compression at all!

Recently he's been working with a producer and today I heard the first finished track. He wasn't pleased when I told him that it sounded like a cross between Dolly Parton and a love scene from The Dukes of Hazzard.

His voice was there, compressed, and struggling for space with the four guitars, percussion, pedal steel, harmonica et al. The timing has been bashed flat. The whole thing sounds totally 'Nashville' and somewhat characterless. No doubt the producer loves it, but Jonny is a real artist and has had someone else's vision pushed on him when it was not really necessary. I think he fell for the whole 'big production' sound, which is easily done I suppose.

So i told him: Your voice, timing and dynamics are what make you unique. Lets play to those strengths instead of treating them as problems and using studio techniques to 'solve' them like this producer has done.

So obviously I've opened my big mouth and now I need to do the business. I'm thinking I'll definately need to record him singing/playing at the same time, in a really nice acoustic space.

Where to start here? Separate mics? Overall stereo?

Any help will be greatly appreciated as usual!

I will post the before and after of this tune when I can get them both.

Cheers,

Jim

maybe you should have lied to him and told him the Nashville Flats made him sound great, it would have meant a lot less work for you, lol

[choinga]

Originally Posted by Unagi

Here's a test recorded last night with a Wunder CM7 GT (M7) (into an LA-3A), and a Beyer M160. Treated room, but nowhere near great acoustics. Still, I'm certain someone who knew what they were doing could work magic with this setup given a great performer. We have very little idea what we're doing, but these two mics in combo are phenomenal!

And personally I'm liking the bleed--I say don't fight it...

I like the sound - but the vocal needs less verb and a little more bite...i can't understand what he's singing for most of the song...

[Unagi]

Oops! Thanks for pointing that out--should have posted the dry tracks. As I said, this was a test.

[jimcroisdale]

Thanks for the continued advice guys - all good stuff.

I should point out that I am hoping to record in either a hall or a church that has beautiful ambience and will negate the need for reverb at the mixing stage.

So the mic setup will need to capture that too. Am I miles away with the close mic/distant spaced pair idea?

Cheers,

Jim

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Thanks for the continued advice guys - all good stuff.

I should point out that I am hoping to record in either a hall or a church that has beautiful ambience and will negate the need for reverb at the mixing stage.

So the mic setup will need to capture that too. Am I miles away with the close mic/distant spaced pair idea?

Cheers,

Jim

I'd just add the NT1 pair in the room to my previous suggestion.....either way, good luck and enjoy!

[jimcroisdale]

Nice one.

At the risk of being told to search:

How do I decode m/s in the Daw (Cubase)?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Nice one.

At the risk of being told to search:

How do I decode m/s in the Daw (Cubase)?

Not sure if Cubase has a decoder plug built in (logic does), but there are some around which should cost very little or even be freeware.....this is where your guess comes true....lol....you'll have to do a wee search......if you haven't tried M/S before you're in for a smiling face.....

[talkshowman]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Nice one.

At the risk of being told to search:

How do I decode m/s in the Daw (Cubase)?

You need 3 channels, 1 for mid signal, 2 for sides. Just copy your side channel into a fresh track in cubase, flip the phase of this new channel, then pan your 2 side tracks 100% and 100% right. Cue smiley face. Enjoy.

[jimcroisdale]

Awesome!

But if it's that simple, why would anyone need a decoder?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Awesome!

But if it's that simple, why would anyone need a decoder?

You don't.......just if it was to tape it would be a different proposition without a box (matrix) to do it instant with a width control(=level of the out of phase side signals) on it and stereo output.....and then they made soft replicas.....not as necessary in a computer.....

[ianbryn11]

Interesting thread, i record alot of live takes with guitar and vcls at the same time. I usually use 2 figure 8 mics, one for gtr and one for voice. There is always a bit of bleed, but it is usually something that i am not bothered by. There is definitly a certain energy thats captured when recording arists in this way. I am a big fan of the live vibe... I am looking forward to trying out some of the techniques you all have brought to the table... Thanks for posting...

[Bo Jorgen]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

Jim, if you don't already have it, rent or buy the "Classic Albums" DVD series volume on Who's Next, and study Pete's solo acoustic performance of Won't Get Fooled Again. Has all the dynamics and feel you discuss, and the hyper-simple mic setup is clearly visible. Hope this helps!

Oh yes. Fab performance, fab sound. Two mics - plus one overhead. Now, let's see if I can attach a pic...