Samplitude sound quality

[pashatom]

when I spend money on preamps and other hardware I know I'm incrementally improving on my sound but this (Samplitude) was like when you go somewhere like Cape Verde and put your feet on the white talk powder sand when you've spent your life going to some 2nd rate Mediterranean resort. It seemed more than just an incremental difference.

[mplancke]

I've constructed a null test which is closer to real world examples of using a DAW application.

Instead of using stems and sub mixes of dubious quality I've utilized high resolution drum tracks which I recorded recently through Apogee AD16X converters. The project utilizes panning and volume control settings that are not unity because unity settings are not a real test of what a DAW is capable and certainly doesn't reflect any real world mixing situation. I realize it makes it easy to do "null" test, but nothing worthwhile is easy.

So presented here is a recording of a full kit, at 24/96KHz with panning, volume control settings and sub-mix bus assignments. All tests were conducted at 32 bit and 96KHz, no re-sampling, down sampling or other manipulations. The project was created in Samplitude and transferred to Reaper using an EDL file which eliminates any variables within the mixer settings because all the pans, volume and track assignments are transferred within the EDL file itself.

I did have two issues with the transfer into Reaper.

1. No submix bus assignments were done so I had to assign those manually in Reaper.

2. The resulting stereo file from Reaper had it's L,R channels flipped which I corrected when the results were compared between the two DAW's.

So, here are the results along with screen captures of the various stages.

Here's the mixer setup in Samplitude.



And in Reaper



Here's the Null result project setup



Sample alignment



The "null" results



And the results normalized



Ooooo, that's not pretty.

As you can see there is a significant difference, especially present with heavy transients such as the hats and kick.

Here's the audio.

The Samplitude version

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...Samplitude.mp3 320K, MP3 version
http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...Samplitude.wav 32 bit, 96KHz version
http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...tude-24bit.wav 24 bit, Pow-R1, 96KHz version

The Reaper version, *note* these are L/R reversed.

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...ums-Reaper.mp3 320K, MP3 version
http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...ums-Reaper.wav 32 bit, 96KHz version

I have corrected the L/R channel positions on this example

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...aper-24bit.wav 24 bit, Pow-R1, 96KHz version

And the resulting, normalized null

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...Normalized.mp3

And here are the test results repeated with using the EDL file as the source for both projects in Reaper and Samplitude

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...ResultsEDL.mp3

I noted that even in the MP3 version that Sampltitude has superior transient detail, especially notable are the snare, cymbals and hat.

I have entire project available in 24/96KHz format if anyone would like to run the tests for themselves.

Additionally, the test can easily be recreated in any DAW that offers EDL support.

Here are the high resolution 24/96KHz test files.

http://sharktankpro.com/GSNullTest/d...umNullTest.rar, 85.7mb file

Mark

[Tube World]

Don't forget that version 11 is coming out with more improvements and a nice linear EQ.

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I've constructed a null test which is closer to real world examples of using a DAW application.

Mark

nice screen shots

i read all the posts, and i havent seen one single post that claims,
REAPER sounds better... and its is free God sake.
all Reaper users posts said, which there are only 2 or 3,
they were happy with Reaper... nothing else

whats yoys point, you are farting big time again

[winrar]

Originally Posted by Tube World

Don't forget that version 11 is coming out with more improvements and a nice linear EQ.

yea, it is,

but still at least two light years behind Cubase 5

[mplancke]

Originally Posted by winrar

nice screen shots

i read all the posts, and i havent seen one single post that claims,
REAPER sounds better... and its is free God sake.

whats yoys point,

Well, all DAW's null smart guy, at least that's what you and your buds say. Go back and read again. My point is clearly laid out in my post.

Now you've changed your tune and you're all about, well that ones free so it doesn't count.

Hear that, it's the sound of you grasping at straws.

Mark

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

Well, all DAW's null smart guy, at least that's what you and your buds say. Go back and read again. My point is clearly laid out in my post.

Now you've changed your tune and you're all about, well that ones free so it doesn't count.

Hear that, it's the sound of you grasping at straws.

Mark

since you busy fating around as usual, i think you have missed something again

no one ever included Reaper as a serious contender...
it doesnt even has its own wave editor yet....

we are on F-1 race, you are talking about your stinky honda civic...
( no offense to Reaper users, )

everybody is here talking about major big $$ ones...


how many times do we have to tell you, no baked beans in the morning

come to SAE, you will learn some

[mplancke]

Originally Posted by winrar

no one ever included Reaper as a serious contender...

More straws? You're hilarious dude.

All DAW's NULL, remember?

And since when do you speak for everyone?

Go back and read *all* the posts, not just the ones that say stuff you like to hear.

Mark

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

More straws? You're hilarious dude.

All DAW's NULL, remember?

And since when do you speak for everyone?

Go back and read *all* the posts, not just the ones that say stuff you like to hear.

Mark

ooohhhh you old fart, stop crying

stop messing up with the reaper, come to real world.

thats your poor old fart attitude tho, what can i do

[mplancke]

Not that I should have to defend my choice of Reaper in the "ALL DAW's NULL!" contest,
but I browsed quickly and found these gems within the first four pages.

There's even one from one of your "ALL DAW's NULL!" poster boys.

Originally Posted by vernier

Since they all Null, may as well save a buck and use Reaper.
'

Originally Posted by drpenguen

i havent done any *null test to it but, i would be very surprised if it didnt null

Originally Posted by Jake Holland

I am now using Reaper and things have been so awesome and it sounds just the same to me.

I've done lots of listening tests and feel Reaper is just as good sounding but works flawlessly!

REAPER is the future folks. Get used to it.

Jake.

It seems your reading skills are on par with your comprehension and listening skills.

/IGNORE=ON

Mark

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I browsed quickly and found these gems within the first four pages.

There's even one from one of your "All DAW's null!" poster boys.
It seems you're reading skills are on par with your comprehension and listening skills.

Mark

yes, read them well, reaper is not a contender here,

you old fart

[mplancke]

Originally Posted by winrar

yes, read them well, reaper is not a contender here,

you old fart

/IGNORE=OFF

So nice of you to steer clear of personal insults, very professional of you.

Now, just so everyone is clear on your position.

1. REAPER is not a considered a viable DAW.

2. REAPER is not included in the "ALL DAW'S NULL" theory.

Mark

[Gibson]

It's funny how people have debates over software computer programs. Simply put ! There all thin and arificial sounding. Listen to all those comercial mixes done today with computers, it's all thin and crunchy.
You want to get a good sound then stop comparing software, ditch your computers and look elsewhere.
Radar, Roland and other similar digital recorders sound so much better.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by pashatom

well I used both, a Sonalksis comp but I used the EQ from samp which is in another ball game/class to Cubase. I also used 2 master plugs from Samp. So a mixture.

The point is, you (should say I) can tell from the moment you are recording that it's another quality altogether. When I first heard my guitars (71 Strat through Matchless through dynamic mic into API512c-Purple Action-ISA430) as they were being recorded in Samplitude it was like when yo put a 100 watt light bulb in the socket when you've been using a 40 watt bulb.

Well, the point is that if you use the plugs that came with samplitude you are not testing for sound quality anymore but you are also testing the quality of the effects.

I imagine the effects supplied with samp are top notch but replacable by vst's.
So strictly speaking they should not be part of a test of the sound quality of the engine.

Could you maybe post the recorded files ?
Just one recording, done in samp and in cubase at the same time.

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

/IGNORE=OFF

So nice of you to steer clear of personal insults, very professional of you.

Now, just so everyone is clear on your position.

1. REAPER is not a considered a viable DAW?

2. REAPER is not included in the "ALL DAW'S NULL" theory.

Mark

1. not yet, but in future yes. i dont mean to offend reaper users.
2. yes.

3 . why dont you use cubsae or nuendo or logic. i ma sure you have o friend who happens to have either of them...

4. personal insult... you are funny, you have the attitude,
you get what you ask.

5. since when iIGNORE=OFF

you have been keep replying to me...


6. if you are the adult then act like an adult, and make everybody respect you.
but since you dont , you wont get iit,

7. put your ignore back on again

[monomer]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I've constructed a null test which is closer to real world examples of using a DAW application.

To make your test valid you would need to make a new project in samp using the EDL you created.
That way you would eliminate any errors in interpretation of the edl.
And then you are still left with the fact that an edl made by samplitude could be working better for creating a samplitude project than a reaper project.

FYI edl is a format ment to be used for video stuff.
Using it for sound could yield small timing differences.

[Em Kay]

mplancke, thanks for taking the time to come up with a test. The results you came up with (normalized null) do sound a tad suspicious, namely because the crash/hats/ride (excuse my lack of terminology, I make dance music and do not deal with "real world" instruments, par se ) come out so clear on the null, suggesting that maybe the levels/pan positions did not convert completely accurately from samplitude to reaper (I am in no way suggesting this was done in purpose, just machine error). BTW I have only listened to the null mp3 on my laptop (has internet), I'm downloading the other files ATM and will check them out on the studio PC when complete.

Would it be possible for you to upload a pack containing all the audio files and info on channel levels/panning/routing? Not only would this allow me to do the same in Cubase for comparrison, but it would eliminate the possibility of reaper not restoring the samplitude settings 100% faithfully. Maybe stick to hard panning and mono for convinience.

One other thing, what panning law are the reaper and samplitude projects?

[winrar]

Originally Posted by monomer

Well, the point is that if you use the plugs that came with samplitude you are not testing for sound quality anymore but you are also testing the quality of the effects.

I imagine the effects supplied with samp are top notch but replacable by vst's.
So strictly speaking they should not be part of a test of the sound quality of the engine.

Could you maybe post the recorded files ?
Just one recording, done in samp and in cubase at the same time.

we can do that at school,

we have a session later this evening

[winrar]

Originally Posted by Em Kay

mplancke, thanks for taking the time to come up with a test. The results you came up with (normalized null) do sound a tad suspicious, namely because the crash/hats/ride (excuse my lack of terminology, I make dance music and do not deal with "real world" instruments, par se ) come out so clear on the null, suggesting that maybe the levels/pan positions did not convert completely accurately from samplitude to reaper (I am in no way suggesting this was done in purpose, just machine error). BTW I have only listened to the null mp3 on my laptop (has internet), I'm downloading the other files ATM and will check them out on the studio PC when complete.

Would it be possible for you to upload a pack containing all the audio files and info on channel levels/panning/routing? Not only would this allow me to do the same in Cubase for comparrison, but it would eliminate the possibility of reaper not restoring the samplitude settings 100% faithfully. Maybe stick to hard panning and mono for convinience.

One other thing, what panning law are the reaper and samplitude projects?

you are the best

[mplancke]

Originally Posted by Em Kay

Would it be possible for you to upload a pack containing all the audio files and info on channel levels/panning/routing? Not only would this allow me to do the same in Cubase for comparrison, but it would eliminate the possibility of reaper not restoring the samplitude settings 100% faithfully. Maybe stick to hard panning and mono for convinience.

One other thing, what panning law are the reaper and samplitude projects?

I was quite surprised by the results as well, the null is down in the -40db range, well within audibility. The pan laws in Reaper and Samplitude are set at -6db aside from the Kick and Snare bus which are set to zero and panned dead center.

I don't buy into the hard panning, mono thing because that's not how the majority people work. I chose Samplitude and Reaper because they both support EDL which eliminates any variables when setting pans and levels. I don't believe that Cubase supports EDL format, but I'm pretty sure that Nuendo does so perhaps you could have a go with that.

I have no hidden agendas and I'm willing share my source materials. I certainly welcome any well thought out and constructive criticisms. I'll get together a file for download with all of the relevant project files and post a link in the next hour or so.

Mark

[Em Kay]

I have done some more thorough testing and have some suprising results.

Here's the exact steps of what I did:

First, I imported both tracks (96khz versions) into Cubase and inverted the phase of Reaper's mixer channel.

I then bounced this (Samplitude and inverted reaper) as a 32bit stereo wav (all faders at unity) and imported this null track into the project. Something was amiss on playback, so I looked at the original reaper and samplitude wavs. mplancke, the reason they do not null is beacause Reaper has it's L and R swapped compared to samplitudes

So, after swapping the reaper file's L and R around, I re-enabled the invert phase on the reaper channel and created a new null file. Now this is where it gets interesting...

After listening to the null, it sounded suspiciously like antiphase... so, I put PAZ position analyser on the master output and looked at the positioning. Sure enough, the anaylser read as antiphase.

Now, just to be sure, I split the null file into it's left and right components. When I inverted the phase on the left (or right) track, low and behold complete cancellation took place.

So basically the difference between the Reaper and the Samplitude output is that some tracks in the left channel of Samplitude are completely the opposite phase of the Reaper output's right channel. So, essentially, human/computer error has accidently led to phase inversion of one or more tracks in the reaper project.

mplancke, can you double check the chanels and buses in both projects and make sure the projects settings have translated to reaper 100% faithfully?

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I was quite surprised by the results as well, the null is down in the -40db range, well within audibility. The pan laws in Reaper and Samplitude are set at -6db aside from the Kick and Snare bus which are set to zero and panned dead center.


Mark

YOU SON OF A BITCH

why diud you delete your message that you were accusing me of being a teacher and getting steady paid etc...and you think you were having fun with me

and my reply to you was skipped to Em Kay, made me look stupid...

lucky i checked my post before i lefty the house for the session....


YOU ARE NOTHING BUT AN OLD C***T


that was my original reply to you, you old C***T

"
eheee

I AM A STDENT YOU FART FACE

AND AS ALWAYS, YOU ARE TALKING FROM YOUR FAT ARSE GAIN,


bye for now, i have a session to catch
i have some homework to do,

BTW : we put your web link at out school board
how to make stinky mixes with great gear
you have alot of fun here

you should come and lecture us one day

you will get paid well

ta
"

[winrar]

Originally Posted by Em Kay

I have done some more thorough testing and have some suprising results.
?

couple of minitues ago, i have sent a new post, but that son of a bitch mplancke

deleted his post and my reply skipped to you some how...

if you did seee at, it wasnt meant to you, it was for mplancke

my apologies

[winrar]

Originally Posted by Em Kay

the reason they do not null is beacause Reaper has it's L and R swapped compared to samplitudes

So, after swapping the reaper file's L and R around, I re-enabled the i

hahahahhahaaa


i can see that even on pictures he posted....

I TOLD YOU GUYS THIS GUYS IS GREAT

we love you


i am late to school :(

it really did worth the hassle

[monomer]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I've constructed a null test which is closer to real world examples of using a DAW application.

And now that i have had a closer look at the files i can say the following:

The mp3 file supposedly being the end result does not seem to be the same one i got from the sources.
The one i got was very similar to the mp3 but it had some huge peaks in it as well.

One of the files has indeed got the sides swapped.

I did a test to hear how it would sound if i did not reverse the channels on one of the sources.

The result i got was in fact almost identical to the correctly nulled file, just at a much higher level and without the peaks. Very much like the mp3 you provided as end result.

Furthermore, both the correctly nulled result and the swapped-channels-on-one-file nulled results are COMPLETELY OUT OF PHASE (checked with a phase correlation merter).

Which suggests a problem of some magnitude.
Either your test setup is bad (like an edl interpretation error) , one of the programs is bad or you did something wrong.. all bets are still open.

In any case providing the actual recordings would be helpful so people can do this test properly.

-edit-
Darn, just read your post Em Kay.
You beat me to it !!
but it must be nice to see your results affirmed

[Em Kay]

Winrar, that is no problem, but I ask you to be civil as regardless of whether you and mplancke agree, he has taken the time to make a null test. And the results are certainly interesting!

Originally Posted by mplancke

And the results normalized



Ooooo, that's not pretty.

As you can see there is a significant difference, especially present with heavy transients such as the hats and kick.

Actually, if you look at the waveform you can see the left and right channels are in opposite phase with eachother. They are in fact identicle signals, albeit with opposite polarity. Try what I did above and you will see that the null'd difference is something in the left channel of samplitude that is out of phase with something in the right of reaper.

[winrar]

Originally Posted by mplancke

I was quite surprised by the results as well,

Mark

I AM SURE YOU DID YOU OLD FART


HEHHEHHEHEE

I TOLD YOU YOU CAN EVEN PERFORM A SINGLE BASIC NULL TEST




what you gonna do now, delete your posts again , and replace the pictures

[winrar]

[QUOTE=Em Kay;4058202]Winrar, that is no problem, but I ask you to be civil as regardless of whether you and mplancke agree, he has taken the time to make a null test. And the results are certainly interesting!

agree, sorry

[mplancke]

Originally Posted by Em Kay

I have done some more thorough testing and have some suprising results.

Here's the exact steps of what I did:

First, I imported both tracks (96khz versions) into Cubase and inverted the phase of Reaper's mixer channel.

I then bounced this (Samplitude and inverted reaper) as a 32bit stereo wav (all faders at unity) and imported this null track into the project. Something was amiss on playback, so I looked at the original reaper and samplitude wavs. mplancke, the reason they do not null is beacause Reaper has it's L and R swapped compared to samplitudes

So, after swapping the reaper file's L and R around, I re-enabled the invert phase on the reaper channel and created a new null file. Now this is where it gets interesting...

After listening to the null, it sounded suspiciously like antiphase... so, I put PAZ position analyser on the master output and looked at the positioning. Sure enough, the anaylser read as antiphase.

Now, just to be sure, I split the null file into it's left and right components. When I inverted the phase on the left (or right) track, low and behold complete cancellation took place.

So basically the difference between the Reaper and the Samplitude output is that some tracks in the left channel of Samplitude are completely the opposite phase of the Reaper output's right channel. So, essentially, human/computer error has accidently led to phase inversion of one or more tracks in the reaper project.

mplancke, can you double check the chanels and buses in both projects and make sure the projects settings have translated to reaper 100% faithfully?

Check the original post.

I noted how the Reaper stereo file was L/R reversed and accounted for that in Samplitude in my comparison test. There are screen shots and a description of what I did.

I've also uploaded the entire project so that you can do your own tests.

Off to my session.

Mark

[winrar]

[QUOTE=monomer;4058189]

Either your test setup is bad (like an edl interpretation error) , one of the programs is bad or you did something wrong.. all bets are still open.

[IMG]


if you check the pictures he posted from the real world session

7-8
10-11
15-16
panned complete opposite on both DAWs...

i am really late to school :(