Tape Op Article: Sufjan Stevens - greatest engineer ever?

[frontierfran]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

I do agree with the comment about his influence on a lot of indie producers. There has definitely been a trend where people are roughing up their tracks deliberately to make them sound less "produced," but ironically, most of the time the results are overproduced garbage, as much as any slick sounding track is.

so funny. As I laid down a scratch vocal idea last night with my API and 414, I found myself throwing a Bit Crusher PI on it, because the creamy sheen I had tracked was too hi-fi for me and I expereimented with "shitting up" my cleanly laid track.

I find myself doing this a lot. ive caught the indie-prod bug i suppose. funny...

[Jake]

The whole hifi/lofi debate is a little weird when applied to Sufjan, because I don't think his albums sound truly lofi (maybe Michigan). I think Illinoise sounds great in large part because it is musically one of the best-arranged albums I've heard in a long time. Then again, I think most of the complaints about modern recordings are really arrangement issues.

[frontierfran]

Originally Posted by Jake

Then again, I think most of the complaints about modern recordings are really arrangement issues.

couldnt agree more. This whole thing could be a instance of:

forgiving the lack of sonic fidelity as a trade off of a well-arranged batch of songs.

ive said it before in another thread for some other reason, but its amazing how easier it is to look past a shitty recording when the song is good.
not saying Sufjan's recordings are shitty, but I will say that using "Guerrila Recording Techniques" on already shitty music would cause much more dismay. But this could be stating the obvious. Anyone with an mbox and a 57 can record a shitty song using shitty equipment==DOUBLE SHIT! :)
The "Hero" in this case created good music on arguably crappy equipment and even crappier techniques--hence, he's almost a "hero" in this article.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Jake

The whole hifi/lofi debate is a little weird when applied to Sufjan, because I don't think his albums sound truly lofi (maybe Michigan). I think Illinoise sounds great in large part because it is musically one of the best-arranged albums I've heard in a long time.

Totally agree on all points. Illinoise has brilliant and inspiring arrangements to the point where recording it with Aja-like meticulousness would add little. I often use Tom Waits recordings for this same example. Though recorded exactly to Tom's demanding vision, the fidelity is secondary to the style and performance.

Then by contrast, Aja and Joshua Judges Ruth, while both composed and arranged brilliantly, hinge significantly on the fidelity of the recording. Different types of production, different songs, different "personalities".

It's all about making the important choices correctly.

Then again, I think most of the complaints about modern recordings are really arrangement issues.

One could argue that a peace treaty for the Loudness War could be negotiated through better arrangements. Armistice arrangements.

[bcgood]

I would like to make a distinction between Michigan and Illinoise. It could be said that Michigan is lo-fi but I don't think we should consider Illinoise to be that way, it's a totally different recording.

First of all the room he recorded it in sounds very nice, secondly Sufjan was definitely meticulous with Illiniose. He used a wider range of mics such as an AT 4033 on his vocals. Also, he worked on it for many hours listening to every little detail on headphones which is apparent in the finished product. Finally, the mastering by Alan at West West Side sounds great with lots of vibe and not extremely limited/compressed; so that makes a difference as well. All of this along with the amazing song writing contributes to why Illinoise sounds so great.

[kedbear]

please...scan...anyone...don't make me get on my knees.

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by frontierfran

so funny. As I laid down a scratch vocal idea last night with my API and 414, I found myself throwing a Bit Crusher PI on it, because the creamy sheen I had tracked was too hi-fi for me and I expereimented with "shitting up" my cleanly laid track.

I find myself doing this a lot. ive caught the indie-prod bug i suppose. funny...

Nah, I dirty up tracks all the time as well.

What I'm talking about is people deliberately making their tracks sound like crap just to cash in on the indie 'lofi' trend. Overproducing them to make them sound crappy just like people overproduce other styles of music in an attempt to make it sound like a super produced pop hit or whatever.

In both cases clearly the song and arrangement should be of more importance. That's why Sufjan is successful, and these people aren't for the most part.

Engineering an album is about the most effective way to communicate the song and arrangement. So sometimes a grungy vocal will be the most effective way to get the point across and sometimes a super clean one will be. My point is that when the production values get in the way of of the music, the track will suffer, and my critique of these producers is that they don't have much to say musically, so consciously or not they try to cover that problem up with their production methods.

[bcgood]

Sufjan Stevens - The Mistress Witch From McClure

"I never thought I would be able to film Sufjan. I tried my chance one time before but the good man needs his time, a kind of slow accession into a calm moment of rare revelation. And so it was no surprise that 10 minutes before filming him, he kind a freaked out, saying, with fleeing and frightened eyes like an animal being hunted « No, no, I don't want to be filmed anymore, leave me be. » Ok, so we'll do it calmly, letting the camera roll as discretely as possible, one take, with no time or patience for errors. Sufjan finishes by descending the staircase, whistling (phew !) with the kind air of appreciation."

[Bunnicula]

I scanned this in as a PDF (it's six or seven pages). Can't attach a PDF to a PM. So if anyone still wants to see this article, please PM me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you via e-mail.

[Iceberg Slim]

I think Sufjan Stevens may be the greatest engineer ever, because he made exactly the record he wanted to make... by himself. Anybody that can engineer an album that sounds that good and still make amazing arrangements and have energy to play all the instruments and sing and arrange vocal groups wins. Really, that album blows my mind. I mean how many people out there can do that? Sly did it, actually, he's probably the greatest engineer ever.

[Black Dirt]

i just got my issue yesterday - i read this post before i got it...

not a big fan of his music so take my opinion with a spoon of grains - mebbe a cup

i believe overall with what he says about how he recorded - like the big picture

but i don't think he's as in the dark about it as he comes off

thing thingy, that thingy, doesn't know the names, wasn't aware of his limitations, pushed this button and that button and this or that happened...

i dunno, it smacks of "i'm an idiot savant talking to a hip recording magazine" to me

what would have been more interesting for me would have been if he contextualized the experience a bit more... let the cat out of the bag a bit... like, "when i was recording i did this to try and accomplish this... here is how i did it. now i know from experience that i can accomplish it this way and this is how it is different" or "i did it this way, not knowing how or why, and played it for so and so and they suggested i try it this way and explained this or that to me"

it doesn't matter if that means he is using higher end gear or not - that's not my point. my point is, when he says whatever mic was around that was left plugged in, he just used that, doesn't really indicate how he used it. or how he responded and adapted to (supposedly) unknown variables. the interview doesn't show any growth to me so it's a little hard to relate to it.

don't underestimate the premeditation of some artists - the ability to stay in character even when not performing is very important to some people in my opinion

[rectifier]

Jules can we get that IQ test thing going for new applicants please?

[Bunnicula]

Originally Posted by Black Dirt

i just got my issue yesterday - i read this post before i got it...

not a big fan of his music so take my opinion with a spoon of grains - mebbe a cup

i believe overall with what he says about how he recorded - like the big picture

but i don't think he's as in the dark about it as he comes off

thing thingy, that thingy, doesn't know the names, wasn't aware of his limitations, pushed this button and that button and this or that happened...

i dunno, it smacks of "i'm an idiot savant talking to a hip recording magazine" to me

what would have been more interesting for me would have been if he contextualized the experience a bit more... let the cat out of the bag a bit... like, "when i was recording i did this to try and accomplish this... here is how i did it. now i know from experience that i can accomplish it this way and this is how it is different" or "i did it this way, not knowing how or why, and played it for so and so and they suggested i try it this way and explained this or that to me"

it doesn't matter if that means he is using higher end gear or not - that's not my point. my point is, when he says whatever mic was around that was left plugged in, he just used that, doesn't really indicate how he used it. or how he responded and adapted to (supposedly) unknown variables. the interview doesn't show any growth to me so it's a little hard to relate to it.

don't underestimate the premeditation of some artists - the ability to stay in character even when not performing is very important to some people in my opinion

Black Dirt, I agree with you somewhat. I like some of SS's music, and I appreciated the Tape Op interview, but I wondered if he was being either a little disingenuous or contrary in some of his "Oh, gee, whuzzat" responses. But I'll give him the benefit of a doubt and assume that because he's able to make his gear work for him as much as he needs to (can get the sound he wants), he doesn't want to get any more technical or analytical about it.

It is a lot to write songs (music and lyrics), arrange songs, perform them, record them, mix them, market them/interface with media. So yeah, even though I think lots of readers could've benefited if he'd had a little more objective insight into his process, along the lines you're describing, I also find that some artists have so much talent they can just skip to the solutions without having to ever stop and think about it. So they create great stuff but can't necessarily teach anyone else what they know.

[Black Dirt]

Originally Posted by Bunnicula

It is a lot to write songs (music and lyrics), arrange songs, perform them, record them, mix them, market them/interface with media. So yeah, even though I think lots of readers could've benefited if he'd had a little more objective insight into his process, along the lines you're describing, I also find that some artists have so much talent they can just skip to the solutions without having to ever stop and think about it. So they create great stuff but can't necessarily teach anyone else what they know.

i hear ya!

i worked with a band (kids... late teens to early 20s) in january that were so good, so effortless, at making good music, it blew my mind... and i've known people over the years who just didn't have to think to create something incredible. but, i dunno, it's tape op... if he did record the way he says, and got those results, it's pretty amazing, but not really illuminating the way the information is presented for a non-fan... i read almost every article of that mag, fan of the subject or not...

for example, i liked the article on mmj a few issues back - again, not a fan - but i could relate to alot of the information, the changes made throughout the process, why certain gear was used over others, etc...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

[...]

To wit, my favourite T-Bone line is,

"The most frightening thing is not dying; the most frightening thing is not living."
From Primatives, Criminal Under My Own Hat

Ten different ways that can be interpreted, right down to simple negation.
[...]

Great line. (I have that album. It's a good one.) I have to say that it strikes me as true enough from so many perspectives as to be almost a universal.

Either that or it's late on a Friday afternoon and I'm fighting a highly inopportune bout of spring fever...

[soul&folk]

spring fever? Here in Chicago we're about to get some snow!

I'm finding it shocking, how much denial many GS folks are going through over this interview. Yes, it's possible that this fella, having been in graduate school to learn writing, and having landed at job at a respected firm in NY, was too busy to learn about all the important things the average GS member (who spends way too many hours agonizing over which tube will smooth out which overly bright whatever...) knows.

I believe him. If we weren't so quick to deny the obvious truth that jumps out from this interview, we'd all be able to save some money from gear and tubes bought in haste. Many of us believe that we can achieve things that take natural talent+ consistent practice, by replacing them with gear. This interview is a like a cold cup of water in the face! Refreshing and humbling!

[bcgood]

Yes, I think Sufjan is a great example of just doing it. He approached the engineering from a very musical perspective, which is of course a good way to approach things. He also got some direction from Alan D. (Gearslutz is censoring this gentlemen's last name) from West, West Side Mastering.

http//www.westwestsidemusic.com/14alan.htm

[personpitch]

Originally Posted by E Baxter Put

I'm not a fan of his music at all, but it was an inspiring interview. His recording skills are good enough that it doesn't sound distractingly lo-fi. He does give a lot of credit to the mastering engineer.

I don't think he's the greatest engineer ever. Let's see how well he can polish a turd!

Well Mythbusters proved you can in fact, polish a turd.

[FireMoon]

There's a whole rake of similar style artists floating around on the web.. many on myspace... seems to me someone had picked it up and run with this particular guy,..fair enough, the songs communicate..

my own particular faves are The John Moran Corporation and a lass from Sweden called Sofia Deville...Miss Deville brings a whole new meaning to the term lo fi... and you know what? I don;t a flying f*** she consistently writes captivating and interesting music. If someone on here with a decent set up was to get off their pampered arse and offer her studio time and go with her ideas and only coach where coaching was really needed you'd have one hell of an album inside a month...


Sofia DeVille on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos This is her web page... now I'm sure those who aren't laughing their faces off at how *badly* recorded it all is might spot that with the right guidance Miss deville is up there with P J Harvey as a song writer..

[kedbear]

Originally Posted by FireMoon

There's a whole rake of similar style artists floating around on the web.. many on myspace... seems to me someone had picked it up and run with this particular guy,..fair enough, the songs communicate..

my own particular faves are The John Moran Corporation and a lass from Sweden called Sofia Deville...Miss Deville brings a whole new meaning to the term lo fi... and you know what? I don;t a flying f*** she consistently writes captivating and interesting music. If someone on here with a decent set up was to get off their pampered arse and offer her studio time and go with her ideas and only coach where coaching was really needed you'd have one hell of an album inside a month...


Sofia DeVille on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos This is her web page... now I'm sure those who aren't laughing their faces off at how *badly* recorded it all is might spot that with the right guidance Miss deville is up there with P J Harvey as a song writer..

You're right. She's really good. Any others you recommend?

I would if i lived in Sweden. Don't have a studio but decent home setup.

[The Dutch Master]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Great line.

reminds me of Peter O'Toole's "Life as it is" performance as Don Quichot in The Man Of La Mancha:
"...Only their eyes, filled with confusion, questioning, 'Why?' I do not think they were asking why they were dying, but why they had ever lived..."


FWIW
I find Sulfjan Stevens and his music to be a great source of inspiration for me. Thanks for the links

[Black Shadow]

Holy crap, I just read he would like to do his next record with Steve Albini.

DON'T DO IT, SUFJAN. ALBINI WILL MURDER YOUR RECORD LIKE HE'S MURDERED EVERYTHING HE'S TOUCHED FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS.

[tiny333]

gotta love it



who said the incredible string band?? *slap*


lol

[khai]

Isn't it that guy called Danielson from Danielson family who recorded "7 swans" in his home studio? Danielson — if my memory serves me right—, recorded with Albini several times. I guess he could have an Albinesque way of recording. Maybe.

What I find most interesting about Illinoise or Michigan is the fact there was no use of compression while tracking instruments, from what I read elsewhere (in gs i think).
Is compression a good thing when recording really dense arrangements instrument after instrument ? Why fatten each track when so many tracks will compete in the final mix ?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by khai

What I find most interesting about Illinoise or Michigan is the fact there was no use of compression while tracking instruments, from what I read elsewhere (in gs i think).
Is compression a good thing when recording really dense arrangements instrument after instrument ? Why fatten each track when so many tracks will compete in the final mix ?

Unless going to tape, I never track with compression anymore unless it's a wildly uncontrolled source, and then it's as a limiter. I don't know many engineers that typically track with comp any more.

Compression has in many cases turned into a mixtime or foldback process.

t/

[Nolet]

Originally Posted by khai

Isn't it that guy called Danielson from Danielson family who recorded "7 swans" in his home studio? Danielson — if my memory serves me right—, recorded with Albini several times. I guess he could have an Albinesque way of recording. Maybe.

Danielson's album "Ships" sounds f*cking awesome...

[Rqrstudio]

The Buddy Project Studio
Just click on the photo of the article to cycle through the pages.
He has changed the way i look at music also.
Even if he has wings on.
I think that actually made me like him even more. If thats possible.