Steely Dan

mikey · 16th July 2005

Wow all the CD's (albums) Steely Dan put out were very well recorded ,starting with Pretzel Logic. thumbsup ..It would be cool to have Gary Katz Or Rodger Nichols as a moderator for a couple weeks

--- any Steely fans out there

Fletcher · 16th July 2005

Having worked with Gary Katz [we co-produced an album... he was the "executive producer" who did all the filler crap... I was the lesser producer who did the radio singles] I can say with a fair bit of authority that Mr. Katz couldn't tell his ass from his elbow... I am quite convinced that his roll with Steely Dan was budget mismanagment and joint roller because he knows less about music than my 11 yr. old daughter.

I'm sure Roger would do it if there were money involved... but I don't really know him that well.

mikey · 16th July 2005

well

hi Fletcher
Well maybe its Rodger we need to talk to .I use to read and try to follow his articles but i wonder how they got that great sound

scotty-o · 16th July 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

I use to read and try to follow his articles but i wonder how they got that great sound

IMHO, a lot of that starts with people like Bernard Purdy and Denny Diaz playing on their records.

-Scotty

not_so_new · 16th July 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotty-o

IMHO, a lot of that starts with people like Bernard Purdy and Denny Diaz playing on their records.

-Scotty

thumbsup

Right on....

Quote:

I can say with a fair bit of authority that Mr. Katz couldn't tell his ass from his elbow... I am quite convinced that his roll with Steely Dan was budget mismanagment and joint roller because he knows less about music than my 11 yr. old daughter.

I love hearing stuff like that from time to time, makes me feel better about only being a mortal. That I know something more than someone (anyone) involved with Steely Dan makes me feel better about myself....

hepp

pitman · 16th July 2005

Definition of Anal Retentive=Steely Dan (Fagen & Becker)

Small excerpt from an interview with Roger Nichols. May be of interest.

BS: Was Donald and Walter's contribution equal?
RN: It was always Donald and Walter together. They're both equally talented and it really was a fifty-fifty operation. Either one of them could've done the records alone, but you can tell there is a difference when both of them bounce ideas off each other. They get fine-tuned that much more. Walter's a great guitar player. The only thing is, he takes a long time to do solos, about an hour a bar, so it takes us a day to do an eight-bar solo. When we started using studio musicians, Walter would show 'em what he wanted, so the later guitar parts were very much influenced by him.

BS: How did Fagen and Becker get so much out of jaded session musicians?
RN: It's like the musical Olympics. Here's a musician whose style and capability they know, and they'll push him to ten percent beyond his limits. Just the chords they've written and the things they have in their mind; maybe Larry Carlton's not used to playing these scales over these chords. Another big factor is that we don't care how long it takes. The musicians will say, 'Hey, I'm really sorry it's taking so long. It's a great idea, I'm trying to execute it,' and we say, 'We don't care how long you take.' It's all constructively done, and it just takes a long time to do it. But every time somebody comes out, they say they've never played that well in their lives. And then they always want to come back.

BS: What's the story behind the solo in "Peg," which apparently frustrated an awful lot of guitarists?
RN: There were only eight guitarists who tried that tune, not thirty. It was just that everyone had their own idea of what the solo should be, and it just didn't match up to what Donald and Walter expected of it. Jay Graydon was their last ditch effort -- it became the Jay Graydon solo by default. It came out pretty much the way they had in mind, though. Usually they'd put a band together for the rhythm sections based on the tune and the style of the musicians: 'These three guys will work together on this tune, let's put 'em together and try it.' Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't quite work out, so you'd put together another rhythm date later with a different combination. But it wasn't like there were ten tunes to cut and you tried to cut five different bands on all ten, and then picked the best one. It sort of got blown all out of proportion by the times the rumors started spreading around 'Eighty-five bands tried that tune!'

BS: How were the duties of Gary Katz and yourself divided?
RN: It worked out pretty well. Once in a while I'd have to slam him against the wall, keep him in line. 'I'm not doing that! Kerrump!' But it's just one of those things that clicks. The musicians pretty much know what they want. They're in charge of that, I'm in charge of getting it on tape and making it sound great.

BS: And Gary Katz's specialty?
RN: Hiring and firing musicians. (Roger laughs) No, Gary's good at getting the most out of Donald when he's doing his vocals. The rest of the time it was pretty much Donald and Walter leading the musicians down the right path, and then Gary Katz more or less the executive producer.

BS: As Steely Dan's records grew more mature, the complaint began to be heard that they were too perfect, that the raw edges had been homogenized out. How do you feel about that?
RN: We achieved perfection and abandoned it on the second album all in one evening. I remember mixing "King of the World." Everyone else went home; Gary Katz fell asleep on the floor and Denny Dias and I stayed until seven in the morning, doing it in little sections, getting the balance between all the instruments perfect, then on to the next section, all of it perfect. Then we spliced the 2-track master sections together, which is how we used to mix down before we got the Necam digital mixing system. The next afternoon we came to the studio and played it back; the song started, and then the fade came. We went, 'Wait a minute. Did we leave something out? What's going on here?' And we played it back again and we had to really concentrate to realize the song was going by. You could hear everything, but you couldn't hear anything, like sonic wallpa-per- really strange. We ended up using the mix we'd done ten hours before which had more three-dimensionality to it.

BS: Tell us about Wendel, the drum machine you designed.
RN: We found that there were certain feels that we couldn't get out of real drummers -- they weren't steady enough. So we had to design something that would do it perfectly, but with some human feeling, the right amount of layback. Instead of just one high-hat sound that repeats machine-like over and over, we had sixteen different ones, so it had the inflections. Wendel can play exactly what the drummer plays -- if he plays a little early or a little hard, Wendel plays it a little early or a little hard. Play it once, Wendel memorizes the song, then you play it again and it repeats what it hears.

mikey · 16th July 2005

that was cool thanks

Gravity8058 · 16th July 2005

The Neve 8058 at our studio, Gravity (in Chicago) was previously at Automated Studios in NYC, where it was used for much of the recording on Gaucho.

Beech · 19th July 2005

Nice one pitman!

Shan · 19th July 2005

I'm sure Rodger can answer all your questions on his very own forum. Seems to be a cool place althougth I havent been there in a bit and he has answered a few posts regarding Steely Dan in detail. Just do a search on his forum and type in 'Steely Dan'.

Also some more info on his website.

There are some interviews etc where he talks about Steely Dan.

Hope that helps. Maybe Jules can get him as a guest Mod. thumbsup

Shane

mikey · 19th July 2005

oh very cool

what am i doing here

mikey · 19th July 2005

Mike O · 19th July 2005

There is also an archive of a forum RN used to moderate here. . Your should be aware that the last year or so of that forum's life he was not a very active moderator.

I don't recall a tremendous amount of SD trivia but there instances were he helped with specific recording problems (analog/digi sync issues for example) that were helpful. You might of course be able to find a lot of this kind of stuff somewhere else (GS?).

With respect to SD trivia (or any other artist IMO) take what you hear from ANY of the participants / observers with a grain of salt. Faulty memories and personal agendas abound.

Jules · 19th July 2005

Jules wuz here

Stephen B. · 19th July 2005

What do you guys think about their latest album, Everything Must Go? I love it. The songs are fantastic and the production, in my opinion, sounds better than anything else they've done, which is saying a lot. And supposedly it was recorded live to tape, with Becker playing bass and then overdubbing the guitar solos later. Anybody know any more about this one?

Zeppelin4Life · 19th July 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Having worked with Gary Katz [we co-produced an album... he was the "executive producer" who did all the filler crap... I was the lesser producer who did the radio singles] I can say with a fair bit of authority that Mr. Katz couldn't tell his ass from his elbow... I am quite convinced that his roll with Steely Dan was budget mismanagment and joint roller because he knows less about music than my 11 yr. old daughter.

I'm sure Roger would do it if there were money involved... but I don't really know him that well.

Fletch is he realated to Bob Katz? name sounds farmiliar in audio.

Steely is awesome. I love the work with Steve Gadd, so thats just a double plus.

wallace · 19th July 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

Wow all the CD's (albums) Steely Dan put out were very well recorded ,starting with Pretzel Logic. thumbsup ..It would be cool to have Gary Katz Or Rodger Nichols as a moderator for a couple weeks

--- any Steely fans out there

I'm a big fan of "Countdown To Ecstacy" though it's got a different sound. Where did you find that article?

mikey · 19th July 2005

Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 25 What do you guys think about their latest album, Everything Must Go?

I didn't know about this release

i'll pick it up

''Steely is awesome. I love the work with Steve Gadd, so thats just a double plus.''

what CD's did he play on

mikey · 19th July 2005

''The Caves of Altamira'' WTF

pitman · 19th July 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beech

Nice one pitman!

No problem!

Always appreciated the sonics as well as the technical prowess of the musicians on their recordings. Fagen's voice is unique but not really my cup of tea. I like some of their songs but love the few stories or rumors I've heard surrounding their sessions. I'm surprised they didn't invent Pro Tools. BTW that's not a knock against Pro Tools.

cc1 · 6th November 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotty-o

IMHO, a lot of that starts with people like Bernard Purdy and Denny Diaz playing on their records.

-Scotty

can someone please transcribe the drum fill on home at last -located 3:12 to 3:14 min ?

max cooper · 6th November 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc1

can someone please transcribe the drum fill on home at last -located 3:12 to 3:14 min ?

Kudos especially to Bernard Purdie. Now what's with the Beatles thing, Bernard?

**James Lugo** · 6th November 2006

Home At Last is probably my all time favorite grooves... That's yummy.

16th July 2005	#1
mikey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 587 Thread Starter	Steely Dan Wow all the CD's (albums) Steely Dan put out were very well recorded ,starting with Pretzel Logic. thumbsup ..It would be cool to have Gary Katz Or Rodger Nichols as a moderator for a couple weeks --- any Steely fans out there __________________ mikey

16th July 2005	#2
Fletcher member no 666 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 9,464	Having worked with Gary Katz [we co-produced an album... he was the "executive producer" who did all the filler crap... I was the lesser producer who did the radio singles] I can say with a fair bit of authority that Mr. Katz couldn't tell his ass from his elbow... I am quite convinced that his roll with Steely Dan was budget mismanagment and joint roller because he knows less about music than my 11 yr. old daughter. I'm sure Roger would do it if there were money involved... but I don't really know him that well. __________________ CN Fletcher Professional Affiliations: R/E/P Professional Recording Engineer and Producer forums - serious hobbyists welcome TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik SoundPure.com mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33 We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light

16th July 2005	#8
Gravity8058 Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,753	Steely Dan The Neve 8058 at our studio, Gravity (in Chicago) was previously at Automated Studios in NYC, where it was used for much of the recording on Gaucho.

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16th July 2005	#3
mikey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 587 Thread Starter	well hi Fletcher Well maybe its Rodger we need to talk to .I use to read and try to follow his articles but i wonder how they got that great sound

16th July 2005	#6
pitman Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 77	Definition of Anal Retentive=Steely Dan (Fagen & Becker) Small excerpt from an interview with Roger Nichols. May be of interest. BS: Was Donald and Walter's contribution equal? RN: It was always Donald and Walter together. They're both equally talented and it really was a fifty-fifty operation. Either one of them could've done the records alone, but you can tell there is a difference when both of them bounce ideas off each other. They get fine-tuned that much more. Walter's a great guitar player. The only thing is, he takes a long time to do solos, about an hour a bar, so it takes us a day to do an eight-bar solo. When we started using studio musicians, Walter would show 'em what he wanted, so the later guitar parts were very much influenced by him. BS: How did Fagen and Becker get so much out of jaded session musicians? RN: It's like the musical Olympics. Here's a musician whose style and capability they know, and they'll push him to ten percent beyond his limits. Just the chords they've written and the things they have in their mind; maybe Larry Carlton's not used to playing these scales over these chords. Another big factor is that we don't care how long it takes. The musicians will say, 'Hey, I'm really sorry it's taking so long. It's a great idea, I'm trying to execute it,' and we say, 'We don't care how long you take.' It's all constructively done, and it just takes a long time to do it. But every time somebody comes out, they say they've never played that well in their lives. And then they always want to come back. BS: What's the story behind the solo in "Peg," which apparently frustrated an awful lot of guitarists? RN: There were only eight guitarists who tried that tune, not thirty. It was just that everyone had their own idea of what the solo should be, and it just didn't match up to what Donald and Walter expected of it. Jay Graydon was their last ditch effort -- it became the Jay Graydon solo by default. It came out pretty much the way they had in mind, though. Usually they'd put a band together for the rhythm sections based on the tune and the style of the musicians: 'These three guys will work together on this tune, let's put 'em together and try it.' Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't quite work out, so you'd put together another rhythm date later with a different combination. But it wasn't like there were ten tunes to cut and you tried to cut five different bands on all ten, and then picked the best one. It sort of got blown all out of proportion by the times the rumors started spreading around 'Eighty-five bands tried that tune!' BS: How were the duties of Gary Katz and yourself divided? RN: It worked out pretty well. Once in a while I'd have to slam him against the wall, keep him in line. 'I'm not doing that! Kerrump!' But it's just one of those things that clicks. The musicians pretty much know what they want. They're in charge of that, I'm in charge of getting it on tape and making it sound great. BS: And Gary Katz's specialty? RN: Hiring and firing musicians. (Roger laughs) No, Gary's good at getting the most out of Donald when he's doing his vocals. The rest of the time it was pretty much Donald and Walter leading the musicians down the right path, and then Gary Katz more or less the executive producer. BS: As Steely Dan's records grew more mature, the complaint began to be heard that they were too perfect, that the raw edges had been homogenized out. How do you feel about that? RN: We achieved perfection and abandoned it on the second album all in one evening. I remember mixing "King of the World." Everyone else went home; Gary Katz fell asleep on the floor and Denny Dias and I stayed until seven in the morning, doing it in little sections, getting the balance between all the instruments perfect, then on to the next section, all of it perfect. Then we spliced the 2-track master sections together, which is how we used to mix down before we got the Necam digital mixing system. The next afternoon we came to the studio and played it back; the song started, and then the fade came. We went, 'Wait a minute. Did we leave something out? What's going on here?' And we played it back again and we had to really concentrate to realize the song was going by. You could hear everything, but you couldn't hear anything, like sonic wallpa-per- really strange. We ended up using the mix we'd done ten hours before which had more three-dimensionality to it. BS: Tell us about Wendel, the drum machine you designed. RN: We found that there were certain feels that we couldn't get out of real drummers -- they weren't steady enough. So we had to design something that would do it perfectly, but with some human feeling, the right amount of layback. Instead of just one high-hat sound that repeats machine-like over and over, we had sixteen different ones, so it had the inflections. Wendel can play exactly what the drummer plays -- if he plays a little early or a little hard, Wendel plays it a little early or a little hard. Play it once, Wendel memorizes the song, then you play it again and it repeats what it hears.

19th July 2005	#9
Beech Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dublin Posts: 701	Nice one pitman!

19th July 2005	#10
Shan Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 746	I'm sure Rodger can answer all your questions on his very own forum. Seems to be a cool place althougth I havent been there in a bit and he has answered a few posts regarding Steely Dan in detail. Just do a search on his forum and type in 'Steely Dan'. Also some more info on his website. There are some interviews etc where he talks about Steely Dan. Hope that helps. Maybe Jules can get him as a guest Mod. thumbsup Shane

19th July 2005	#11
mikey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 587 Thread Starter	oh very cool what am i doing here

19th July 2005	#13
Mike O Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,094	There is also an archive of a forum RN used to moderate here. . Your should be aware that the last year or so of that forum's life he was not a very active moderator. I don't recall a tremendous amount of SD trivia but there instances were he helped with specific recording problems (analog/digi sync issues for example) that were helpful. You might of course be able to find a lot of this kind of stuff somewhere else (GS?). With respect to SD trivia (or any other artist IMO) take what you hear from ANY of the participants / observers with a grain of salt. Faulty memories and personal agendas abound.

19th July 2005	#14
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,356 1 Review written	Jules wuz here

19th July 2005	#15
Stephen B. Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 111	What do you guys think about their latest album, Everything Must Go? I love it. The songs are fantastic and the production, in my opinion, sounds better than anything else they've done, which is saying a lot. And supposedly it was recorded live to tape, with Becker playing bass and then overdubbing the guitar solos later. Anybody know any more about this one?

6th November 2006	#23
James Lugo Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 6,710	Home At Last is probably my all time favorite grooves... That's yummy.