Drum room mics on a budget - LDC or SDC?

[Dr Funk]

Hi

I'm on the hunt for a pair of drum room mics - so far I've used a couple of cheap-ish tube LDCs with reasonable results, SE 5600 in cardioid and Thomann t.bone SCT800 (C12 knockoff), also cardioid. It's a home studio with an 18' x 14' room for drums, amps etc. What I've done so far is to face the mics away from the kit, spaced about 6' apart, 6" from the opposite wall.

I recently sold the t.bone mic to a friend and was going to buy a 'matched' pair of them for EUR460 ($550), but I've been reading around since, and there seem to be a few options for the same money, notably the Avensons or maybe a pair of Peluso CEMC6's.

This is my drum setup so far:

Neumann KM184 x 2 (not matched) - overheads
AKG D112 - kick
AKG C3000 x 2 (not matched) - toms
AKG 451EB - ride (if needed)
Sennheiser 421 II - extra tom (if needed)
SM57 x 2 - snare
EV RE16 - hat

I also have:

AEA R84
Neumann U87Ai
AKG 414B-ULS

Plus I'm keeping the SE 5600 - I like it on acoustic guitar/vox recordings with the R84 as the vox mic.

It's a bit of a gamble though - I know the t.bone LDCs will work ok in my room, but I'm not sure about using SDCs/omnis as room mics. Will I lose the meat I get with the tube LDCs? I'm also a big fan of ortf, and use the KM184s regularly in ortf as guitar amp room mics and on Hammond/Leslie. I wonder what the Avensons/Pelusos would be like in those situations?

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Frank

[Exsanguis]

I know you're asking for a pair of condensers, but if I were on a serious budget and wanted a cool room mic, I'd go for a 57. I can't even remember all the times that I had one in the drum room for talkback, and ended up using it as the room mic, completely squashed. As for the pair of condensers on a budget, I'd say go for the Peluso's, but thats only because I've worked a session with those, but not with the others you mentioned.

[Jay Kahrs]

I'll second the SM57 suggestion if you're after cheap and cool or maybe a pair of PZM's. If you need something cleaner...more like a picture then I'd go with another mic...maybe Schoeps or some other small diaphragm condensor but I can't think of anything "cheap" that I'd use. Have you tried the R84 as a room mic?

[Dr Funk]

I hadn't thought of a 57 as a room mic - I only have two and they always end up on the snare. And I haven't tried the R84 either - although I put it up over the kit once and loved it! But I'm really into using pairs of room mics and overheads - I got to play with a Mutt Lange multitrack a few years ago, and after that I got into using a pair of room mics all the time.

Just had a word with a friend who's a pro audio dealer here in Ireland - he can get me a pair of Rode NT5's to try out. Same kind of budget - €400 ($485). He doesn't know of the Avensons, so if I go that way I'll have to buy them outright.

So, cheap LDCs, cheap SDCs or a pair of 57s?

Frank

[SoundCampaign]

I now swear by the Oktava mk012's as room mics pointing at the walls on the ground...I used a pair of 414's for about a year or two and was bored to death after a year of that...One day I put those through some tube mic pres and I'm am truly loving my drum sounds for those bad boys....Check em out, plus they're really cheap!

Peace

[EngineEars]

SDC: Stapes (Avenson Audio) STO-2's, EV635A, Marshall MXL 603
LDC: Langevin CR-3A's, Marshall MXL-2001, Audio Technica 4033

also try the Radio Shack PZM's with the balancing mod.

[jajjguy]

you have good mics that you're not using! if you're bent on doing stereo room micing, try an M-S configuration using any 2 of R84, U87, or 414. all three of these can do figure 8 pattern, so you can use any of them in either M or S. also, who says you can't use a mismatched "pair"? you might find it to work nicely. i'd thoroughly investigate these options before chasing a cheap pair.

[zakco]

I have several other choices, but I keep coming back to my Shure SM81s for drum rooms. The have just the right amount of "grit" to add some excitement to the close mic'ed kit. No shortage of bottom either. I usually use them in either XY or ORTF facing away from the kit, depending on what else is happening in the room during tracking.....

Anyways, the SM81s are cheap and I highly recommend trying them for this app.

-Z-

[Brad McGowan]

I just finished up drums for a project with my own band and I used the following mics as room mics...a different mic for each song:

1. spaced pair of SM57's about 6" off the floor pointing at kit from about 8 feet away
2. R121 about head height facing the kit from about 8 feet away, but off to the side slightly, run through a distressor on 20:1 or NUKE (I can't remember right now)
3. EV635a smashed with a Distressor and then EQ'd with a Urei 535 graphic.
4. U99 in omni in the adjacent room facing out the front door of the studio towards a neighboring building, smashed with Distressor on NUKE...so bitchin'

The tracks that sound the coolest and have the best vibe are the ones with the 57's and EV635a. I ended up using the EV635a as a mono drum overhead on another song actually since it was so damn cool. I've come to realize that condensers as room mics pick up too much cymbal sizzle which just sounds like complete ass if I heavily compress the track. At least that's how it usually works out in my room. I've been having much better luck lately with the dynamics.

Brad

[Jay Kahrs]

IMHO, a mono room mic can be really compelling on a kit and leaves room on the sides for other stuff that needs to be panned out L/R. I'm also getting into the vibe of using as few mics on the kit as I can get away with. Sure, you'll spend more time on tuning and placement but when it's all done I end up with a cleaner & more natural picture of the kit.

How about a pair of room mics and a mono overhead? You've got a bunch of good mics...mix it up a bit.

[Brad McGowan]

I'm completely with Jay on this one. Mono is the way to go. Stereo room mics have been much more of a pain in the ass to me unless they are more like overall kit mics and some kind of coincident pair like M-S or Blumlein.

Speaking of the minimal miking thing.... I was inspired reading recent posts about the way William Whitman does his drums--with a mic on either side of the kit instead of directly overhead. So I tried it myself and had some excellent results. I used a pair of R121's (backside) with a U99 a few feet away from the kit and down low for some boom and body from the kick and toms. As Jay said--tuning and placement is key with those kind of setups.

Brad

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

As Jay said--tuning and placement is key with those kind of setups.

Having a good drummer is the real key. It's only going to sound as good as the source. If the drummer is good, then spending time on tuning and microphone placement is going to make or break it, but if the drummer sucks...well...you're fukked before you put a mic on a stand.

[warhead]

I always use one room mic (CAD tube mic) and use it to strengthen my center image and add depth.

War

[zmix]

I usually find that condensor room mics are too shrill.

Why not try the new Nady ribbon mic? $200

http://www.nadywireless.com/products...m2mics_pg.html

[Jamz]

I just picked up an AEA R88 stereo ribbon mic.
Awesome for drum room mics.

[Dr Funk]

Thanks for all the replies. I really like the M-S idea - I'm starting an album this Saturday, so I'll try it out. Besides, I won't have time to buy anything before then, so I makes sense to think more creatively about what I've got. I appreciate the feedback - it's easy to fall into the same old ways of doing things.

I think I do need a couple more mics though - sometimes we try to track as much of a band live as we can (probably this weekend too) and the mics run out pretty quickly, particularly the good ones!

Frank

[84K]

Originally Posted by warhead

I always use one room mic to strengthen my center image and add depth.

War

me 2

I use a 251 or Mag Mic. Sometimes a U67....

[carlsaff]

I would recommend Oktava MK102s or Audio-Technica Pro-37Rs (the latter is one of the unsung heroes of the budget mic world).

Both SDCs.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Dr Funk

I think I do need a couple more mics though - sometimes we try to track as much of a band live as we can (probably this weekend too) and the mics run out pretty quickly, particularly the good ones!

Every mic is a good mic, it's just that certain ones will do a better job at a given task then others. If your tracking as a live band, then try setting everyone up in the same room (assuming the room sounds decent) and get a little bleed going.

[Dr Funk]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Every mic is a good mic, it's just that certain ones will do a better job at a given task then others. If your tracking as a live band, then try setting everyone up in the same room (assuming the room sounds decent) and get a little bleed going.

Ah, I wish! Our room is 18' x 14', and I have tried a couple of full live band setups before but with disastrous results!! Luckily they were just experimental sessions and nobody was paying... Maybe I'll try it again some time - I agree the best live vibe comes from everyone being together in a room.

The studio is actually an old house, and for live tracking I spread the band around a couple of rooms with headphones. Anyone doing scratch tracks or guides goes with me in the control room listening on monitors - so far that's given by far the best results. Also, the house is a bungalow with solid stone walls, so the rooms are all beside each other (no running up and down stairs!), plus there's very decent separation between rooms.

I'm leaning towards a pair of Octavas and probably a pair of those ribbons. From what people are saying, they seem to be a real bargain considering they're also available from Thomann at €133 each. 2 usable pairs of mics for under €500, all options covered! Octavas in ortf or ribbons in xy, facing the wall, or maybe William Wittman's technique of a spaced pair of ribbons angled in looking at the kit. Lots of things to try, including mono! thumbsup

I know I'm already well covered for drums only, but I also want to be covered for a full band setup.

Can I go wrong at all with that option?



Frank

[84K]

Originally Posted by Jamz

I just picked up an AEA R88 stereo ribbon mic.
Awesome for drum room mics.

I heard Jamz work with his R88... AWESOME! Great mic (and placement, recording, eqing, etc.) thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

[Dr Funk]

Originally Posted by 84K

I heard Jamz work with his R88... AWESOME! Great mic (and placement, recording, eqing, etc.) thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

From my experience of the R84 I have no doubt at all - I wanted an R88 the second I tried the R84 on a singer/acoustic guitarist from a few feet away. That and the time I put it up over the kit. Sounded fantastic - just wished it was stereo! I also wished I could afford one...

I love my R84

Anyone used an R88 on a Leslie?

Frank

[dhughes]

Hey here is a silly thing to try when you are bored and looking for something new. I have a set of hydrophones (underwater mics). Put one or two in a jug of water, a plastic bag, a glass jar, beer can...whatever. Stick it anywhere in the room. Compress the hell out of it and try pulling it into the mix. You might be surprised.