Lets play "School the Noob" console confusion!!

[Action508]

ok.... Whats the big deal with consoles? Are they not just big ass live mixers with really nice preamps and low noise? I don't even understand how people multitrack in DAWs with them. There obviously must be something to it since the best sounding recording I have ever been on was done with a modded TRident 80b (I think it was an 80b). What do people that are using older consoles (not like the new SSL's) do about a control surface with their daw, just use the mouse? I know people talk a lot about mixing ITB and OTB, but OTB just seems like black magic to me as far as mixing while using a daw.

Now all that said, I realize people get great charictor and sound from consoles. I see how some people love the tone of certain consoles, I just don't see whats up with the MONSTER price tags on consoles, and how they are integrated with DAWs.


All of what I am talking about is directed strictly towards 100% analog gear, not consoles with control surface integration. No this is not a joke, I am really just trying to learn and understand a higher end of studio gear than I have had the chance to set up/use.

[ryanojohn]

most of those people use their DAW as a tape machine only... and thus DON'T need a control surface for the DAW. All of their fader moves are done on the console itself which is synced via timecode to protools or a similar DAW.

This means all the fader moves and automation is saved separate from the DAW session.

[Action508]

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

most of those people use their DAW as a tape machine only... and thus DON'T need a control surface for the DAW. All of their fader moves are done on the console itself which is synced via timecode to protools or a similar DAW.

This means all the fader moves and automation is saved separate from the DAW session.

I don't really understand automation. I have been reading up on it all night (5am now) and I keep hearing people talking about it, but never mention what it actually is. Now if the DAW is being used as a tape machine, how do they rewind, record, punch, etc etc. If you move a fader does it change the track volume in the DAW or is it just in the board? If thats the case how does all the final OTB stuff get put on the tracks for the finished product?


I know a lot of this probably sounds dumb to people that have been recording for many years, but I only have a few years experiance, and it is all with DAW/control surface type situations. I am just trying to understand what the pro's are doing. Thanks for the help thus far.

[Jim@SSL]

Ever wonder where DAW manufacturers got the ideas for automation and sync from?






It was a console.

It might help you a little if I said that SSLs were shipped with "Automation Computers" in the racks which stored and recalled the consoles fader moves etc. We also integrated the remote control of tape machines into the desks to provide an integrated solution.

[Action508]

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

Ever wonder where DAW manufacturers got the ideas for automation and sync from?


It was a console.

It might help you a little if I said that SSLs were shipped with "Automation Computers" in the racks which stored and recalled the consoles fader moves etc. We also integrated the remote control of tape machines into the desks to provide an integrated solution.

Automation to me is a machine doing work. Like a robot arm picking up a stick for example. So to me in my head that translates to motorized faders. Is that what people are referring to when they say automation in boards? I had no clue old analog consoles had "automation" (by my definition which may be way wrong) or that there was anything digital in there reading fader position to recall fader position.

I know nothing about tape machines aside from the fact they record your session to tape, they have a head to read/record the tape, and they supposedly give you a desired tape sound. So the "remote control of tape machines" sort of confused me a little more. As far as Sync, all I can think of with stuff like that is wordclock where it is making sure all the machines are well... synchronized. How did people sync tape machines to all the other analog gear?




AS you guys can tell aside from your typical mics, analog compressors, and preamps I am rather lost with analog gear. Sorry if some of this is filled with dumb questions, I am just trying to learn and my searches are bringing me very vague answers, so I figured I'd just ask.

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by Action508

to me in my head that translates to motorized faders. Is that what people are referring to when they say automation in boards?

Yep, and before automation you would work the faders live and if you ran out of hand you would get some more. Either assistants or sometimes the band. Bands used to get so pumped up about being part of the mix in that way. There was something about them knowing that they were the ones that rode that solo or faded out that overdub. Good times. Then along came recall and the party was over.

[Action508]

Now that I know what automation is, how does it recall, and remember exactly what you want to do? Once all that is said and done how does it all get back into the DAW?


A whole other thread with this question, but whats the deal with all these summing mixers?

[TrashRocket]

I'd reccomend checking out a book called Understanding Audio by Dan Thompson. It's a Berklee Press book, so I'm sure you can find it on the interwebs. It breaks down console signal flow in a way that is easy to understand. I'll attempt to give you a quick rundown of my experiences using a console into a protools rig.

Microphone goes into the preamp of the console. You set your levels and the console sends an analog signal from the channel direct out, right into your AD conversion. The signal is digitally recorded in protools, and assigned to a DA output. The signal is now back in the analog realm and is sent back into the console through the line input for that channel.

It's different than using a typical firewire audio interface, because usually within boxes like that, each preamp goes straight into an AD converter, and all the routing is done for you. When you use a console, you physically route some of those types of connections using a patchbay.

Hopefully this helps. Pick up that book, it's full of good info and it explains all this better than I can at 5:30 in the morning.

-Kevin

[TheNewFlesh]

I can't answer your questions about Console automation because I have no experience with it. But about using consoles with DAWs....

-A large format console has audio inputs and outputs
-A DAW (in this case, our "tape recorder" ) also has it's own ins and outs (audio interface)
-Any decent studio that uses a console/DAW setup has a "Patch Bay"

The patch bay is how you control signal flow for the entire studio. It lets you take the mic from Vocal booth 1 and send it to track 8 on your console. The patch bay lets you take the room mic from the live room and bypass the console, run it to an outboard preamp, and then go straight into Pro Tools.

If you understand your patch bay, then you can route signal in almost any way you please.

Typically, when you mix on a console, it's just like using your DAW.
Except when your ONLY use a DAW, your mix usually comes out of 2 analog outputs and goes to your monitors so you can hear the stereo result. When your mix with a console, EVERY AUDIO TRACK HAS IT'S OWN ANALOG OUTPUT (yes, you need a LARGE or expandable audio interface) and each of these outputs goes to an individual track on a large console.

Example (using Pro Tools DAW and SSL console)
Pro Tools Kick Drum -> SSL strip 1
Pro Tools Snare Top -> SSL strip 2
....
Pro Tools Overheads Left -> SSL strip 9
Pro Tools Overheads Right -> SSL strip 10 (if it's an old board, there's no "stereo tracks")
....
and so forth

[Jim Williams]

[QUOTE=Action508;3925419]
AS you guys can tell aside from your typical mics, analog compressors, and preamps I am rather lost with analog gear. QUOTE]


This is what the digital audio revolution has brought us. Youngsters can operate anything with a computer, but try fixing that broken toaster, well....

remember when they had to dig up all those old retired computer DOS code writers to fix the Y2K date problems because all the new Windows code writers didn't even know how to break down the code to find and fix it?

Sort of like that old SiFi movie when they ask, "Why do you keep the old guy around?"

"Because he knows how to fix the MACHINES"!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[chuchurocka]

i use an older console (70's 18channel carvin, with too many mods to list) with protools. All of the channel out's go to my Digi-001 and the channel sends go to the channel in's on the console. I also use an ADA8000 for an additional 8 channels. that feeds directly to protools without going through the console, but the outs on the ADA8000 go back in to the console giving me full control of all 16 channels on the console. there are a few little exceptions in the setup, some channels input from my tube mic pre's but all end up at the same input source on the board and digi.

My board doesn't do fader automation or anything fancy like that. When i need automation for a track, i do it in PT w/ fades or automation there. I use the console for getting the mix 'right' and applying any outboards.

I had intended on doing everything in the box, but i got a helluva deal on the console ( and it gave me many more preamps) so that's how / why i started doing it this way.

It gets hairy when i start remapping outs as aux's and whatnot but a pen and paper are life savers.

hope that helps some.

[Action508]

I am starting to understand a little bit. So say I have vocal mic on channel one in. Where would I send the out from the DAW? To a line in on channel one?


Lets say I got my drums tracked. After they are tracked I want to throw my favorite compressor snare and bass. It's just a one channel compressor, and I still want to be able to adjust the level of the snare and bass. What do I do then? Send the signal out and record it on another track?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

most of those people use their DAW as a tape machine only... and thus DON'T need a control surface for the DAW. All of their fader moves are done on the console itself which is synced via timecode to protools or a similar DAW.

This means all the fader moves and automation is saved separate from the DAW session.

And just exactly how do you sync a console to DAW via timecode? I'm picking up a Soundcraft DC2000 this weekend and got no idea how to sync the automation to Cubase...

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Action508

I am starting to understand a little bit. So say I have vocal mic on channel one in. Where would I send the out from the DAW? To a line in on channel one?

Lets say I got my drums tracked. After they are tracked I want to throw my favorite compressor snare and bass. It's just a one channel compressor, and I still want to be able to adjust the level of the snare and bass. What do I do then? Send the signal out and record it on another track?

If you have an in-line console you can monitor your tape return (often on a small fader) within the same channel as your mic pre and tape send. A split desk will often just have the tape returns on pots, with level, pan and a few auxes in another section of the desk. If you have the channels I prefer to bring tape returns back on a whole other section of the desk so you get the long fader, full EQ, inserts and even automation if you want it straight from the get go.
There are lots of routing permutations and ways of working, which is a big plus for using a console.

That's the thing with hardware vs plug-ins. If you only have one real compressor you can only use it once (obviously), unless you print your stuff through it one track at a time, but then you lose ease of adjustment.
It's all a balancing act. Use a plug-in on the snare and bass and your hardware on the vocal?
Decisions, decisions.

[Action508]

Originally Posted by Samson

And just exactly how do you sync a console to DAW via timecode? I'm picking up a Soundcraft DC2000 this weekend and got no idea how to sync the automation to Cubase...

Bump. Still trying to find out how to sync an analog console, and trying to find out exactly what happens when you move a fader, and how it effects whats in the daw. Does the daw re record each time you play it back so the levels are different? That sounds like a poor idea so I doubt thats how it works.

[FeatheredSerpent]

I think there are more pressing matters than syncing analogue consoles with regards to your knowledge building

Think it through logically. Signal flow through your system is the most basic thing you need to understand.

Youøre talking as if the daw is going to do things off its own back. Nothing will be recorded into a daw unless you have directed a signal to an input and have pressed record.

Understand the mixer in your daw software first, and the principles of hard disk recording, then you will see how similar to an analogue console/tape machine it is (although there are some major differences especially with bussing).
You also need to understand the differences between analogue and digital signals/data. Basically you need to get reading, the links provided above will tell you everything you need to know, but here's a quick rundown:

Your audio interface provides you with physical inputs and outputs that feed to and from your daw software, right?
You plug your synth or a mic into your interface, this is an analogue signal. Even if the synth is a digital one, the actual audio being output from the synth is an analogue signal (so long as it is coming from an analogue output).

You create 2 audio tracks in your daw mixer, and you set them so they are receiving signal from the same physical inputs on the audio interface that you have your synth and mic signals coming in on.
You press record and the signals are recorded to their own tracks, stored on hard disk.
Once stored on hard disk, they are now playing back through the daw mixer, and you can add insert effects, change levels with the fader, use eq, send the signal to an aux track with reverb etc, by using the functions in your daw's mixer.

Now look at the analogue equivalent, it's exactly the same.
You have the synth and mic coming into the physical inputs on the desk, you route them to a multi-track tape machine and press record.
They are then stored on tape.

So here's the first real difference. The mixer and tape machine in the analogue world are two seperate components, whereas in your daw they are one and the same, but still operating on exactly the same principles.

So when you playback the tracks from tape, you have to route them physically from the tape machine to the console again. You don't need to do this in a daw because the daw is a tape machine and mixer that have been integrated together. Get it?

Now once the tracks from tape are coming back into the console, you would do exactly the same things as you did in your daw mixer, you will use the faders, eq, inserts and sends to achieve the desired result.

Youøve been using a control surface to control your daw's mixer, so you know all ready the benefit of being able to use your hands to mix rather than a mouse, but there are other reasons to use an analogue desk over the daw mixer.
A certain desk may give you a certain sound that you like just fom passing signal through it, or maybe because its preamps sound nicer than your audio interface when you drive them hard, or you may find it absolutely necessary to have the kind of 'zero latency' monitoring a desk can provide when tracking.

Back to the point though, which is how do you use an analogue mixer with a daw when the daw is the only tape machine you have (and remember that is exactly what it is, it is a glorified multitrack tape machine that just so happens to have a mixer and effects and even instruments built in.

When you have an analogue console/desk (I'm English and these two words mean the same thing to me, ie 'mixer'), then you have your hardware instruments hooked up to its inputs - synths/mics/direct in from bass, whatever it might be.

Each of those channels on the desk will have a direct out. This output you will connect to a multichannel audio interface (yes, you still need the interface, otherwise how does the signal get into the computer?!).

So each channel on the desk feeds an input on the interface, wihich will allow those channels to be recorded onto their own tracks in your daw software.
That audio interface also needs to have enough outputs to be able to send all those tracks back out into individual channels on the desk for mixing. Now you can see that you have seperated the tape machine and mixer components of the daw, and because it now is acting as a tape machine only, you need to physically route the playback channels back to the hardware mixer, just as you would do with an analogue tape machine.
In your mind, you need to seperate the processes so you understand each one, tracking (recording) is one thing, mixing is another.

But the important thing is that you see that you never need to touch a daw fader or other daw mixer control.
You set the recording levels from the source and from the preamp/desk, that signal is recorded digitally into the daw via the audio interface. When you play back from the daw, you are hearing what you recorded, again you don't need to touch the daw fader, once the signal is recorded and is playing back thorugh the desk, that's where you do your mixing.

When the track is mixed, you can either just record it back to the daw as a stereo mix (by routing the desk's stereo outs to the audio interface), or you can record stems (groups of like instruments/sounds, with or without effects) etc.
A hybrid approach is when you use both the daw and the mixer/outboard to get your result, you could use the sends on the desk to route signals to a plug-in processor you like for example, or you could insert plug-in compressors on the recorded audio track before it comes back out to the desk if you don't have enough hardware compressors etc.
This relates exactly to what the poster above was saying about the patchbay.
You need to have a system in place that allows you to send signals in, through and out both the desk and the daw in whatever manner you see fit.
You accomplish this by having an audio interface that has enough inputs and outputs to accommodate the maximum amount of simultaneous signal movement that you could possibly envisage (and then add a few more!).

Automation is the same whether it's on an analoge console that supports it or in the daw itself. You are recording mixing moves to a computer, and have the computer play them back.
With an analogue console, those moves are recorded to its own computer that is dedicated to the task. Also remember that automation is not always digital, many analogue consoles have analogue automation systems, but I know very little about how those actually work, other than it's based on voltage changes obviously, so can't explain it to you!

But as an analogy, I have a desk that records and plays back my automation moves via midi, as the desk has built-in midi ports.
I could have an Atari ST hooked up to the desk dedicated just to recording and playing back those automation moves, completely independently of my daw. That's the principle. (I don't though, I just keep a dedicated midi port on my audio interface hooked up to the desk and read and write automation info to a midi track in cubase, but you get the idea).

Same with timecode, it is not neccessarily a digital signal - smpte timecode is striped onto analogue tape. Just remember that everythign that happens in the digital world is inspired by what is possible in the analogue world, and has its counterpart there.
Once you understand how things happen in the analogue domain, you will better understand what is going on in your daw.

[Action508]

Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent

I think there are more pressing matters than syncing analogue consoles with regards to your knowledge building

Think it through logically. Signal flow through your system is the most basic thing you need to understand.

Youøre talking as if the daw is going to do things off its own back. Nothing will be recorded into a daw unless you have directed a signal to an input and have pressed record.

Understand the mixer in your daw software first, and the principles of hard disk recording, then you will see how similar to an analogue console/tape machine it is (although there are some major differences especially with bussing).
You also need to understand the differences between analogue and digital signals/data. Basically you need to get reading, the links provided above will tell you everything you need to know, but here's a quick rundown:

Your audio interface provides you with physical inputs and outputs that feed to and from your daw software, right?
You plug your synth or a mic into your interface, this is an analogue signal. Even if the synth is a digital one, the actual audio being output from the synth is an analogue signal (so long as it is coming from an analogue output).

You create 2 audio tracks in your daw mixer, and you set them so they are receiving signal from the same physical inputs on the audio interface that you have your synth and mic signals coming in on.
You press record and the signals are recorded to their own tracks, stored on hard disk.
Once stored on hard disk, they are now playing back through the daw mixer, and you can add insert effects, change levels with the fader, use eq, send the signal to an aux track with reverb etc, by using the functions in your daw's mixer.

Now look at the analogue equivalent, it's exactly the same.
You have the synth and mic coming into the physical inputs on the desk, you route them to a multi-track tape machine and press record.
They are then stored on tape.

So here's the first real difference. The mixer and tape machine in the analogue world are two seperate components, whereas in your daw they are one and the same, but still operating on exactly the same principles.

So when you playback the tracks from tape, you have to route them physically from the tape machine to the console again. You don't need to do this in a daw because the daw is a tape machine and mixer that have been integrated together. Get it?

Now once the tracks from tape are coming back into the console, you would do exactly the same things as you did in your daw mixer, you will use the faders, eq, inserts and sends to achieve the desired result.

Youøve been using a control surface to control your daw's mixer, so you know all ready the benefit of being able to use your hands to mix rather than a mouse, but there are other reasons to use an analogue desk over the daw mixer.
A certain desk may give you a certain sound that you like just fom passing signal through it, or maybe because its preamps sound nicer than your audio interface when you drive them hard, or you may find it absolutely necessary to have the kind of 'zero latency' monitoring a desk can provide when tracking.

Back to the point though, which is how do you use an analogue mixer with a daw when the daw is the only tape machine you have (and remember that is exactly what it is, it is a glorified multitrack tape machine that just so happens to have a mixer and effects and even instruments built in.

When you have an analogue console/desk (I'm English and these two words mean the same thing to me, ie 'mixer'), then you have your hardware instruments hooked up to its inputs - synths/mics/direct in from bass, whatever it might be.

Each of those channels on the desk will have a direct out. This output you will connect to a multichannel audio interface (yes, you still need the interface, otherwise how does the signal get into the computer?!).

So each channel on the desk feeds an input on the interface, wihich will allow those channels to be recorded onto their own tracks in your daw software.
That audio interface also needs to have enough outputs to be able to send all those tracks back out into individual channels on the desk for mixing. Now you can see that you have seperated the tape machine and mixer components of the daw, and because it now is acting as a tape machine only, you need to physically route the playback channels back to the hardware mixer, just as you would do with an analogue tape machine.
In your mind, you need to seperate the processes so you understand each one, tracking (recording) is one thing, mixing is another.

But the important thing is that you see that you never need to touch a daw fader or other daw mixer control.
You set the recording levels from the source and from the preamp/desk, that signal is recorded digitally into the daw via the audio interface. When you play back from the daw, you are hearing what you recorded, again you don't need to touch the daw fader, once the signal is recorded and is playing back thorugh the desk, that's where you do your mixing.

From research to common sense I got this far. I understood all of this. How do you get the daw to actually start recording, rewinding, etc,etc? Just a click of the mouse, or a small little controller or something?

Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent

When the track is mixed, you can either just record it back to the daw as a stereo mix (by routing the desk's stereo outs to the audio interface), or you can record stems (groups of like instruments/sounds, with or without effects) etc.
A hybrid approach is when you use both the daw and the mixer/outboard to get your result, you could use the sends on the desk to route signals to a plug-in processor you like for example, or you could insert plug-in compressors on the recorded audio track before it comes back out to the desk if you don't have enough hardware compressors etc.
This relates exactly to what the poster above was saying about the patchbay.
You need to have a system in place that allows you to send signals in, through and out both the desk and the daw in whatever manner you see fit.
You accomplish this by having an audio interface that has enough inputs and outputs to accommodate the maximum amount of simultaneous signal movement that you could possibly envisage (and then add a few more!).

See now this is where I got lost, but now I understand. You do everything outboard (adjust levels, set up eq's, compression, reverbs etc) then re record it back into the tap machine(DAW in this case) as a stereo mix, or as groups.

This brings up a couple more questions. Say I am mixing like this. Channel 1 has my X compressor, and X eq routed in. Channel 2 has Z Compressor and Z eq eouted in. I get the sing pretty much where I want it so I am satisfied. I then move on to the next song, and send this back as a stereo mix. Now song 2 has X compressor and Z EQ on channel one, and channel 2 has Z compressor and X EQ. I go back to the other song and realize the sound of song 2 is MUCH better. I pretty much have to start all over on song 1 instead of just changing things in the DAW in seconds correct?

Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent

Automation is the same whether it's on an analoge console that supports it or in the daw itself. You are recording mixing moves to a computer, and have the computer play them back.
With an analogue console, those moves are recorded to its own computer that is dedicated to the task. Also remember that automation is not always digital, many analogue consoles have analogue automation systems, but I know very little about how those actually work, other than it's based on voltage changes obviously, so can't explain it to you!

But as an analogy, I have a desk that records and plays back my automation moves via midi, as the desk has built-in midi ports.
I could have an Atari ST hooked up to the desk dedicated just to recording and playing back those automation moves, completely independently of my daw. That's the principle. (I don't though, I just keep a dedicated midi port on my audio interface hooked up to the desk and read and write automation info to a midi track in cubase, but you get the idea).

So basically automation is for changing the volume levels mid track correct? I don't really do this much in my DAW so this wouldn't be a big worry of mine YET. I am sure as I progress as an engineer I will find times that, that will help my recording or mix a ton. I just always did stuff like this post in my DAW.

Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent

Same with timecode, it is not neccessarily a digital signal - smpte timecode is striped onto analogue tape. Just remember that everythign that happens in the digital world is inspired by what is possible in the analogue world, and has its counterpart there.
Once you understand how things happen in the analogue domain, you will better understand what is going on in your daw.

So I now learned how a sync can be digital or analoge. Still leaves me wondering how you sync a DAW to a console.






I again want to thank you guys for the help. Outside of what I know, a lot of engineering is real foreign to me. I am very passionate about my music, and my work, and I strive on learning as much as possible so I can better my self, and better my work I am so passionate about. I know knowledge and experiance are power so I am trying to learn as much as possible. In 2004 I went from downloading drums of MP3's and recording guitars through cool edit when I started, to now using a multi channel interface, control surface, preamps, compressors, mics, VST's, and more. Without the resources I have found online, and the time I have spent in the studio with my own bands I'd be lost and not know a single thing. It has given me a better respect for all the music I have looked up to my entire life, lets me understand the music I listen to more, and has taught me a whole new respect for engineers anywhere from recording, to mastering. Thank you guys for helping me so much. Your help really does mean a ton to me.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Action508

Bump. Still trying to find out how to sync an analog console, and trying to find out exactly what happens when you move a fader, and how it effects whats in the daw. Does the daw re record each time you play it back so the levels are different? That sounds like a poor idea so I doubt thats how it works.

How is an analogue console made in the 60s going to change levels (or affect ANYTHING) in a DAW?

you really need to go back to basics...you've got far more questions than can possibly be answered on a thread on a forum. Get a book on basic home recording, which will answer your more basic questions.

For example if I say to sync an analogue console and a multitrack (doesn't have to be a computer, could be tape) one needs to be master, and one needs to be slave. The master generates smpte timecode - the slave locks to it and follows it. The mixing desk computer (separate to the DAW) records the fader moves, and plays them back whenever the multitrack is being played. You're then able to update the mix with more moves, cuts or whatever.

At no point does the mixing desk affect what's in the DAW, nor the DAW affect settings on a mixing desk. This is where you're confusing a controller for the computer (eg C4, icon etc) which doesn't carry audio, and a mixing desk, which does. Part of the confusion stems from the fact some more modern desks CAN act as a controller for a DAW as well - but that's separate to the mixing desk function.

You may understand the above, you may not - if you don't it's your lack of foundations on which to build your knowledge and experience. Mixing desk automation, as FS pointed out, is quite a long way after "basic signal flow" in the recording engineer's manual.

[Action508]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

How is an analogue console made in the 60s going to change levels (or affect ANYTHING) in a DAW?

you really need to go back to basics...you've got far more questions than can possibly be answered on a thread on a forum. Get a book on basic home recording, which will answer your more basic questions.

For example if I say to sync an analogue console and a multitrack (doesn't have to be a computer, could be tape) one needs to be master, and one needs to be slave. The master generates smpte timecode - the slave locks to it and follows it. The mixing desk computer (separate to the DAW) records the fader moves, and plays them back whenever the multitrack is being played. You're then able to update the mix with more moves, cuts or whatever.

At no point does the mixing desk affect what's in the DAW, nor the DAW affect settings on a mixing desk. This is where you're confusing a controller for the computer (eg C4, icon etc) which doesn't carry audio, and a mixing desk, which does. Part of the confusion stems from the fact some more modern desks CAN act as a controller for a DAW as well - but that's separate to the mixing desk function.

You may understand the above, you may not - if you don't it's your lack of foundations on which to build your knowledge and experience. Mixing desk automation, as FS pointed out, is quite a long way after "basic signal flow" in the recording engineer's manual.

I do apologize for being a noob on anything outside of a basic DAW ITB home studio and asking so many questions.


Now either the DAW or the board is making a time code. I doubt a board is going to make a time code so I am guessing it locks on to the DAW's timecode. I understand one needs to be slave and one needs to be master. I have a few pieces of outboard gear that are wordclocked together. I am just trying to figure out HOW to sync an analog board to a DAW, or even how they did it to tape machines so I can figure out how to do it to DAWs.

[FeatheredSerpent]

Like psychomonkey said, there are so many things you need to know and to understand for each part of the puzzle to fall into place, but a forum really isn't the best place to get that kind of in depth information.

No one will deliberatley palm you off but look, here's what I did when in your situation:

"Hmm, how does this work, I don't understand timecode.
>Goes to wikipedia, searches for timecode and/or smpte"

I don't know how used to researching stuff you are, but this is the internet, man, everything you need to know is out there, pretty much, at least more than enough to get you well on the way.
Get the books suggested, and use google and wikipedia, that's what they are there for thumbsup

[tigheguy]

"Outside of what I know, a lot of engineering is real foreign to me."

nice!

[Dean Roddey]

Someone might have mentioned it up there, but some folks don't use an automated console. They use the console for EQ and color and setting basic levels and routing to outboard hardware and such, and do the automation in the DAW.

[analogtodd]

You only know what you know

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Someone might have mentioned it up there, but some folks don't use an automated console. They use the console for EQ and color and setting basic levels and routing to outboard hardware and such, and do the automation in the DAW.

That's fine if all your processing is DAW side, but not much help if you have hardware inserts across your channels.
Riding a fader into a compressor has it's uses, but it isn't SOP.
Tricky thing this hybrid stuff, really.

[betamatt]

Originally Posted by Action508

I am just trying to figure out HOW to sync an analog board to a DAW, or even how they did it to tape machines so I can figure out how to do it to DAWs.

I guess the question for you is, why are you so concerned with how to sync the automation on an analog console to a DAW? Are you going to be buying an analog console with automation? Are you going to be working in a studio as an engineer on a session where you will be using such a setup? I'm asking because earlier you say that you aren't even using the automation in your DAW when you mix. So why are you worried about how it works on an analog board, which you don't use? A more appropriate question would be: what would I use the automation in my DAW for? And then, if you want to try it and don't know how to do it, "how do I use the automation in my DAW?" Then, once you understand how and why and use it regularly, and if you do engineer a session on an analog desk and what to use it's automation, chances are you'll have an assistant who will show you how that setup works, but if you don't, come on here and ask, "OK I'm mixing an album on console X, how do I use the automation?" In this order, things will make a lot more sense.