Trouble with lack of punch in Cymbals/overheads.

[Mixbuster]

Hey guys.
R'lly hope that somebody can help me out on this.
When I record drums. "In a room which is 4m long, 2,5m wide, and 2.10 high"
Low end, I suppose.
I'm using: (Recording metal, rock, alternate rock etc.)

(Kick - Audix D6 (Sounds dull when recorded, tried everything. Only Eq helps))
(Snare - Sm57(Anyone else have the thought of this mic sounding dull on snares?) or Rode M1)
(Toms - Shure Pg56's)
(OH - Shure Pg 81)
I generally loose the punch of the cymbals. If I turn up the overheads my bassdrum and snare looses its definiton (Attack, bottom end, crisp etc.)


When I mix, the OH sounds washed away, no punch in cymbals or definition.
As said earlier, if I turn them up, the other drums is lacking of punch, clarity etc.

Any comments, thoughts? Tips?

Thanks
Mixbuster

[corworld]

In order of importance:

1. Drum Tuning
2. Mic Placement
3. Mic Selection
4. Room
5. Preamp

Are you using the PG81 as a mono overhead? That would be one area to try and upgrade. Try a LDC for a larger than life sound. SDC for more brilliance from the cymbals.
for more punch, Make sure you are not compressing anything as you record. For the kick, you need to experiment with placement and tuning. Sometimes, more than one mic is what is needed. (Subkick)

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by corworld

In order of importance:

1. Drum Tuning
2. Mic Placement
3. Mic Selection
4. Room
5. Preamp

Are you using the PG81 as a mono overhead? That would be one area to try and upgrade. Try a LDC for a larger than life sound. SDC for more brilliance from the cymbals.
for more punch, Make sure you are not compressing anything as you record. For the kick, you need to experiment with placement and tuning. Sometimes, more than one mic is what is needed. (Subkick)

No, I'm using spaced stereo.
Preferring to know this, but what is LDC and SDC mics?

Thanks for other advices.

[TL2]

Check for absolute polarity between all of your mics.

[j2dafo]

Originally Posted by corworld

1. Drum Tuning
2. Mic Placement

Def. start here. Especially since you probably don't have other options as far as room and gear. These two are essential even with high end gear and great rooms.
If you don't have an LDC to use in tandem on the kick, or a subkick to use, try this:
Create an aux track in your DAW, place a gate that can be keyed externally and then a signal generator with a (sine?) wave at around 60hz. Use the recorded kick drum to key the gate and you'll have sub frequencies to blend with your mic'd track. Adjust the frequency according to the song and drum, and also adjust the attack and decay times on the gate.

[j2dafo]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

what is LDC and SDC mics?

Thanks for other advices.

large diaphragm and small diaphragm condensers.

[Mixbuster]

Thanks!
Anyhow, no matter where I place my kick mic, it sounds dull :S
Any thoughts?

[PVAUDIO]

Definitly make sure your OHs are in phase, with eachother and the kick and snare. Also I would serioulsy consider upgrading your OH mics. Try using another mic with your d6. Use the d6 near the beater to capture the attack of the drum and use something on the outside and blend together. One of the nicer kick sounds I've heard in a while was a d6 and ns-10.

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by TL2

Check for absolute polarity between all of your mics.

Sounds like you got phase problems between all the different mics.

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

Thanks!
Anyhow, no matter where I place my kick mic, it sounds dull :S
Any thoughts?

Heaps of EQ on the kick drum is pretty standard procedure. If you're working with modern rock of any sort, boosts and cuts of 12db+ are not uncommon on the kick.

You can also try sticking an LDC on the outside of the kick if you really feel the need to do it without processing.

^^ all assumes your drums are tuned well and played by someone who doesn't stick the beater.

[Diegel]

If audix D6 sounds dull something is seriously wrong. The D6 is about the sharpest, clickiest pointiest bass drum mic I've encountered. Dull is the exact opposite word I would use to describe a d6. First of all try putting it inside the bass drum 2 inches away from the batter head and a few inches away to either side where the beater makes contact with the skin (the closer to the beater the more click). That will give you the exact opposite of a dull bass drum sound. Sm57 is supposed to sound muffled. It took me a lifetime of trying every mic on snare to figure out why the 57 is the mic of choice on snare drum. First of all any dynamic mic is going to sound "dull" when compared to a condensor mic. However the purpose of close mics is really to beef up the sound of the overheads so in fact you want the mics to be "dull." I've tried using condensors as close mics but they pick up to much bleed and makes it very difficult to gate. And speaking of gating. Gating will help those dynamics make the drums punch more. For overheads I like spaced pair (If you divide the set into 3 parts I would place each overhead mic where the inner 3rd meets the outer third) where the capsule is angled so that it is perpendicular with the angle of the cymbals and about 18 inches over the highest cymbal. MAke sure you pan the overheads left and right respectively about 66% each direction. Try all that out and let me know how it works for you.

[Steffmo]

Low ceilings......lots of reflections to cause cancellation of frequencies........

[bgrotto]

On the Kick: as someone above said, if the D6 is dull, you're ****ing up. That mic is instant scooped and bright kick sound. Try changing the position.

Snare: 57 is fine; adjust the angle. If you still can't get it bright enough, either add a bottom snare mic for some rattle/sizzle, or use a different snare. I mean, does the snare sound bright in the room? Also: hit it harder! Drums sound brighter when you hit em harder.

OHs - those mics should be OK. Maybe try treating the ceiling above the kit, and definitely double check the polarity of the mics. If things sound OK at first, but get worse as you raise the OH mics, that's a phase issue, and is easily corrected.

If you're doing very modern metal, you might wanna forgo a spaced pair and just close mic the cymbals (possibly in groups, since you only have two mics). Use the D6 as more of a trigger mic than the final sound (in other words, minimize bleed and maximize attack), and plan on layering in a snare along with what you already got.

Hope that helps! Good luck

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

Hey guys.
R'lly hope that somebody can help me out on this.
When I record drums. "In a room which is 4m long, 2,5m wide, and 2.10 high"
Low end, I suppose.
I'm using: (Recording metal, rock, alternate rock etc.)

(Kick - Audix D6 (Sounds dull when recorded, tried everything. Only Eq helps))
(Snare - Sm57(Anyone else have the thought of this mic sounding dull on snares?) or Rode M1)
(Toms - Shure Pg56's)
(OH - Shure Pg 81)
I generally loose the punch of the cymbals. If I turn up the overheads my bassdrum and snare looses its definiton (Attack, bottom end, crisp etc.)


When I mix, the OH sounds washed away, no punch in cymbals or definition.
As said earlier, if I turn them up, the other drums is lacking of punch, clarity etc.

Any comments, thoughts? Tips?

Thanks
Mixbuster

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by ScumBum

Sounds like you got phase problems between all the different mics.

I've always wondered, I assume there will be phase problems between the overhead, the snare, kick, toms?
Any trick of getting theese in phase?

[j2dafo]

if that's what you assume then you definitely need to address your mic placement.

[Mixbuster]

I place my cymbal mics, over the Left (Hat 'n 1 cymbal) the other Right (over the raid and the china) about 30 - 40 cm over the highest cymbal.
Tom mics (high rack tom, low rack tom and floor tom) - about 5 cm from the drum pointing at the edge
Snare - 'bout 5 cm from the drum pointing where the stick hits.
Kick - Inside, middle of the drum, pointing away from the beater.

That's it..

[usefullidiot]

Originally Posted by corworld

In order of importance:

1. Drum Tuning
2. Mic Placement
3. Mic Selection
4. Room
5. Preamp

Are you using the PG81 as a mono overhead? That would be one area to try and upgrade. Try a LDC for a larger than life sound. SDC for more brilliance from the cymbals.
for more punch, Make sure you are not compressing anything as you record. For the kick, you need to experiment with placement and tuning. Sometimes, more than one mic is what is needed. (Subkick)

i would say

1.Player
2.Instrument
3.Room
4.mics
5.mic placement
10. pres

[jval]

-mic the overheads close
-treat the ceiling
-for dense rock / metal filter out anything below 400-500hz in your overheads and maybe dip around 600. That'll help a lot of your bleed problems and give you a more focused sound.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by jval

-mic the overheads close
-treat the ceiling
-for dense rock / metal filter out anything below 400-500hz in your overheads and maybe dip around 600. That'll help a lot of your bleed problems and give you a more focused sound.

Ceilings treated, and I cut the OH's at 500hz (+/-). But then they sound VERY thin. and it sounds like .mm cymbals

[Aisle 6]

As said earlier in this thread, the D6 is a very scooped mic and hyped in the highs and lows. If you add OH's and it all goes to hell, then you have some serious phase issues between mics.

1. Tuning
2. Kit placement
3. Mic choice
4. Mic placement
5. Pre's, comps etc...
6. Repeat all of the above until satisfied.

When more than 1 microphone is picking up the same sound source from a different placement (spill) then that source will be out of time (phase) relative to the primary source mic. With a drum kit, this is very tricky to manage as most modern kit recordings have mics everywhere. You will never get that phase perfect between all mics, but some of the shift is what makes stereo recording so interesting anyway.

To check your phase, listen, in mono to one mic and then open up another and listen to the combined sound. does the tone alter, do my ears tighten. Then engage the phase button on on of the pre's and listen to the shift. Is the tone better or worse? Move any mics placement that does not combine with the rest until you have auditioned the entire kit of mics together. Repeat this exercise with all mics until it all sounds ROCKIN'. thumbsup

[Iggy Poop]

Originally Posted by Diegel

If audix D6 sounds dull something is seriously wrong. The D6 is about the sharpest, clickiest pointiest bass drum mic I've encountered. Dull is the exact opposite word I would use to describe a d6. First of all try putting it inside the bass drum 2 inches away from the batter head and a few inches away to either side where the beater makes contact with the skin (the closer to the beater the more click). That will give you the exact opposite of a dull bass drum sound. Sm57 is supposed to sound muffled. It took me a lifetime of trying every mic on snare to figure out why the 57 is the mic of choice on snare drum. First of all any dynamic mic is going to sound "dull" when compared to a condensor mic. However the purpose of close mics is really to beef up the sound of the overheads so in fact you want the mics to be "dull." I've tried using condensors as close mics but they pick up to much bleed and makes it very difficult to gate. And speaking of gating. Gating will help those dynamics make the drums punch more. For overheads I like spaced pair (If you divide the set into 3 parts I would place each overhead mic where the inner 3rd meets the outer third) where the capsule is angled so that it is perpendicular with the angle of the cymbals and about 18 inches over the highest cymbal. MAke sure you pan the overheads left and right respectively about 66% each direction. Try all that out and let me know how it works for you.

This post is so right. I do alot of rock and the D6 is my first choice for kick but It definitely needs a gate on it to make it come alive. Also, I found a real good free plugin from a company called "Flux". The plugin is "bittersweet" and it basically sounds like the SPL transient designer which is a great piece that excels in making kick drums come alive. Check it out here: Flux:: sound and picture development
As far as your overheads, you'll probably want to get a decent pair of large condensers for a bigger stereo image.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by usefullidiot

i would say

1.Player
2.Instrument
3.Room
4.mics
5.mic placement
10. pres

This is much more like it - I'd maybe switch placement with actual mics maybe.

As for tips to getting mics in phase - move mics, listen, switch polarity to look for nulls etc. Basically use your ears.

[Mixbuster]

Avant Electronics CK-6 I guess theese will do the job as large condenser mics

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

Avant Electronics CK-6 I guess theese will do the job as large condenser mics

Very much so.

I would personally prefer the Avant CV-12's though..


And why not go ahead and get a CK33 or a CK40.... awesome stereo image... great mic great price.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Very much so.

I would personally prefer the Avant CV-12's though..


And why not go ahead and get a CK33 or a CK40.... awesome stereo image... great mic great price.

But the CK33 is a double headed stereo mic. how can I use that for overhead? :p

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

But the CK33 is a double headed stereo mic. how can I use that for overhead? :p

Surely you jest.

But I recommend getting both... two CV-12's and a CK33 or CK40 as a room.

[Diegel]

Placement makes so much more of a difference than mic choice.

[Brian Middleton]

Recorderman, recorderman, friendly neighborhood recorderman......

And at mix time, UAD-1 Fairchild if you have it. If not, I dunno, some other magically big/sweet compressor.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

Recorderman, recorderman, friendly neighborhood recorderman......

And at mix time, UAD-1 Fairchild if you have it. If not, I dunno, some other magically big/sweet compressor.

I don't think recorderman will do for rock metal? would it? And for the compressor, I only have the stock Sonar compressor.

Another question, how do you get your kick to stand out more, without making it harsh with +12db at 7-8k?
etc: I love this kickdrum sound YouTube - In Flames - My Sweet Shadow :D

[Brian Middleton]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

I don't think recorderman will do for rock metal?

Well, perhaps it wouldn't be a first choice for that style. But for clarity and definition, it's hard to beat--so if nothing else works, you might want to give it a shot. The compressor is for adding beef and cymbal sustain.