Trouble with lack of punch in Cymbals/overheads.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

Well, perhaps it wouldn't be a first choice for that style. But for clarity and definition, it's hard to beat--so if nothing else works, you might want to give it a shot. The compressor is for adding beef and cymbal sustain.

I don't know. but i disagree with you. It may would have been nice for pop music (I don't know). But if I add a kick drum mic, I would have to lower the overheads due to clarity for the kick drum?

[Recycled_Brains]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

I generally loose the punch of the cymbals. If I turn up the overheads my bassdrum and snare looses its definiton (Attack, bottom end, crisp etc.)


When I mix, the OH sounds washed away, no punch in cymbals or definition.
As said earlier, if I turn them up, the other drums is lacking of punch, clarity etc.

Any comments, thoughts? Tips?

Thanks
Mixbuster

Sounds like your mics are not in phase with each other. The first sign of that is loss of definition and low end. Check that your OH's are in phase with each other. If they're not, that could explain the "wash".

Then make sure the snare is in phase with the OH's. Try flipping it, and see if the snare reappears.

Then (again) make sure the Kick mic is in phase w/ the OH's AND the snare drum.

Then the toms, then the room mics.... etc. etc.

If the drums aren't sounding good on their own, then try tuning them, or if you can, try a different snare, kick, cymbals, etc.

But, you're problem really sounds like a phase issues to me.

When you're getting sounds, monitor in mono, through 1 speaker. Get it sounding good like that, then try spreading it all out in stereo and see if it still sounds good.

[Nishmaster]

Your room really, really needs treatment. I used to track in my home studio with dimensions like those. Drums were never, ever, fun. Same results as you describe.

It really sounds like you have excess mud and low/low mid frequency buildup. Decently placed mics in a treated or much larger room will not step on each other nearly as much as you describe.

If that's not in the budget, roll off the overheads up pretty high, 125hz perhaps, suck out some 250-500hz, wherever the mud is, and add a little to the top. As for the kick, if you're doing modern hard rock tones, add a little 60-80hz, suck out the mids with a nice big broad smiley face, and add a big tight boost where the click lies, usually somewhere between 2-6k. You're probably going to have to gate the kick to get it tight in a room like that.

It's not going to have much "vibe" or "life," but it will have better clarity and punch, if you manage your compression right in the mix.

[tenchijin2]

No matter how you place your mics, in a room that size (without treatment) the comb filtering will wash away any good, clean sounds you can get. The best kit, tuning, player, mics, placement, and preamps will not change that.

Any one of the above factors (categorized oh so nicely in several differnt orders throughout the thread) can screw up your drum tracks, but they all screw the tracks up in a *different way*. In your case, the problem will be down to room and mic placement. Both will be significant but in your room the mic placement will be less of a factor because the influence of the room dwarfs the benefit of good placement.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by Recycled_Brains

Sounds like your mics are not in phase with each other. The first sign of that is loss of definition and low end. Check that your OH's are in phase with each other. If they're not, that could explain the "wash".

Then make sure the snare is in phase with the OH's. Try flipping it, and see if the snare reappears.

Then (again) make sure the Kick mic is in phase w/ the OH's AND the snare drum.

Then the toms, then the room mics.... etc. etc.

If the drums aren't sounding good on their own, then try tuning them, or if you can, try a different snare, kick, cymbals, etc.

But, you're problem really sounds like a phase issues to me.

When you're getting sounds, monitor in mono, through 1 speaker. Get it sounding good like that, then try spreading it all out in stereo and see if it still sounds good.

One question, how do I get the toms, in phase with the overheads?
kick and snare?

Your room really, really needs treatment. I used to track in my home studio with dimensions like those. Drums were never, ever, fun. Same results as you describe.

It really sounds like you have excess mud and low/low mid frequency buildup. Decently placed mics in a treated or much larger room will not step on each other nearly as much as you describe.

If that's not in the budget, roll off the overheads up pretty high, 125hz perhaps, suck out some 250-500hz, wherever the mud is, and add a little to the top. As for the kick, if you're doing modern hard rock tones, add a little 60-80hz, suck out the mids with a nice big broad smiley face, and add a big tight boost where the click lies, usually somewhere between 2-6k. You're probably going to have to gate the kick to get it tight in a room like that.

It's not going to have much "vibe" or "life," but it will have better clarity and punch, if you manage your compression right in the mix.

Finnaly! Thank you so much for the reply!

[loveinoctober]

I had the same problem with "soft" sounding cymbals in my mixes and i switched from using small condenser mics to sm57s as overhead and that did the trick.
I use a lot of room mic sound in my mixes so this may or may not work for you.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

Hey guys.
R'lly hope that somebody can help me out on this.
When I record drums. "In a room which is 4m long, 2,5m wide, and 2.10 high"
Low end, I suppose.
I'm using: (Recording metal, rock, alternate rock etc.)

(Kick - Audix D6 (Sounds dull when recorded, tried everything. Only Eq helps))
(Snare - Sm57(Anyone else have the thought of this mic sounding dull on snares?) or Rode M1)
(Toms - Shure Pg56's)
(OH - Shure Pg 81)
I generally loose the punch of the cymbals. If I turn up the overheads my bassdrum and snare looses its definiton (Attack, bottom end, crisp etc.)


When I mix, the OH sounds washed away, no punch in cymbals or definition.
As said earlier, if I turn them up, the other drums is lacking of punch, clarity etc.

Any comments, thoughts? Tips?

Thanks
Mixbuster

Al above tips are right on, sounds like you need to flip some phase switches on something.

[nikodemos]

I think that for metal drumming the best aprach for OH mics is the X-Y positioning with the adition probably of individual close mics for ride cymbal and hi-hat....the hi-hat mic probably won't be needed (depending on the drummer's playing style and dynamics) but just in case.... if you are aiming for a more "swidish" metal sound then this is probably the best aproach (X-Y SDC pair and individual ride & hi-hat mics)......

I agree with everyone mentioning phasing problems and most of them can be sorted with the proper mic placement (and the correct spacing and direction) and some polarity reverse switching......

Keep in mind that most modern metal drum sounds are a result of triggering at least for the kick drum and snare drum.....

[Avening]

Wow, some people are fishing these days .....

IMO this has nothing to do with equipment, and everything to do with technique and room.

Your room is less than ideal for drum tracking ... "treated" or not. Your room is being overloaded and every mic on the kit will pick up just about anything. There is no way that you are going to create the drum sound you are going for unless you sound replace and use verb.

My advice for your situation is to close mic everything. Try to exclude the sound of the room at ALL costs. You can still have overheads, but put a -10 or -20dB pad on them and bring them lower on the kit. Try moving them around a bit. Maybe try them pointing over the snare/hat, and floor tom/ride .. you never know. Move them around, and listen. Also remember that the more gain you use on your pre, the wider the cardioid pattern becomes.

As for phase, a simple way of doing this is to record a pass of what you have set up, and on the individual channels in your software, bring up a gain plugin or whatever you have, and flip the phase in relation to your overheads. For example, have the overheads playing then bring in the snare. Flip the phase. If it sounds thinner, it was in phase. If it beefs up, it was out.

FWIW, In your situation, I'd opt to baffle the kit as much as humanly possible, close mic, and sound replace just about everything. You just can't get the "big kit" sound out of a tiny room.

Also, keep in mind that your overheads are the single most important mics on your kit. They represent the overall image. When you're mixing, it is important to use these as your reference. Bring these up first, get the desired sound, then sparingly bring up your direct mics to fill in the sound.