No console, no Summer - whats next?

[Tim Farrant]

Hello All

In brief, seems to me there is a need for some sort of routing/mixing surface for use with DAW's. Something that gives you plenty of connectivity between DAW interfaces, mic preamps and analog outboard. Something that might replace a half a patch bay but with built in mixing. Thoughts?

[deda]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Hello All

In brief, seems to me there is a need for some sort of routing/mixing surface for use with DAW's. Something that gives you plenty of connectivity between DAW interfaces, mic preamps and analog outboard. Something that might replace a half a patch bay but with built in mixing. Thoughts?

Not just yes but hell yes. I need one now, regards ,,deda,,

[LeMauce]

There is on... called a SSL Matrix.

[camus]

Dear Tim,

My personal opinion on this is that it is better to have a simple but great sounding product. In other words, a small format console that doesn't cost as much as a 1608, but still sonically a step up from the offerings by Mackie, A&H et al. I don't really think there's a need to re-invent the wheel here, but maybe I belong to a minority. My preference would be:

8 line level channels.
3 pre aux sends, 3 post.
Pan, solo and mute.
A good sounding EQ (a blank 500 series slot for each channel might increase marketability maybe?)
At least 2 pairs of "uncompromised" stereo line level returns.
At least 4 busses in additional to a stereo master output.
Facilities for talkback.
Cascadable.
A great sounding summing buss.

Would $3000 be a reasonable enough price for something like this? I could live with fat-ass 610 type rotary faders if that would keep the price down to be honest.

[lostinmusic]

If 4U isn't too much there's 76 inputs on this.

[camus]

Nothing against Speck, but I'd get a headache trying to work on something like that. Layout is way too cramped.

[nikodemos]

i would love to see a desk with:

- built in "V272 style" line amps (min 16)

- automated faders with dual function (both as analog mixer and DAW control)

-1 or 2 500 series slots on each channel (for preamp and eq or comp)

-2 switchable inserts on every channel (1 after the line amp and 1st 500 slot and one just before the fader)

- customizable central section (...so it could fit the exact user needs and budget too from simple summing amps to multiple buses, transformer options, extended monitoring controller functions, headphone amps etc)

- patchbay with all I/O, inserts plus enough I/O points for outboard

- reasonable price

[Tom H]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Something that might replace a half a patch bay but with built in mixing.

I would love to see something like this. A 19 inch rack unit wich functions like the routing matrix you can find on the classic SSL's.

It would be placed between my summing, DA and patchbay. Maybe start with an 8 to 8 matrix? (make them linkable/expandable?)

[Koed]

I want 19' module with only metering on it,24 inputs and outputs, 8 buss and stereo out.

Then I want the whole routing to be digitaly controled, including the panning and fading.

No faders, just a power switch.

[Steamy Williams]

Originally Posted by Koed

I want 19' module with only metering on it,24 inputs and outputs, 8 buss and stereo out.

Then I want the whole routing to be digitaly controled, including the panning and fading.

No faders, just a power switch.

That would be great if it also had 4 or more aux sends with pre/post switching.

[cortisol]

I would like a 16 input multi buss with inserts type box.

People want to use their DAWs to ride the virtual faders into this box.

They want to try multi bus compression with their hardware compressors.

They want their main summing section to have a sound that they like. So I suggest allowing 2 500 series preamp slots free to provide the make up gain and a further io on the mix buss for a compressor or eq.

I guess their are many ways to look at this... imagine a Toft ATB without the faders and preamps. People would actually want this I think.

Tonelux and the confusulator on his site! Putting people off by making them into mixing desk designers! What a way to shoot yourself in the foot. Expensive system with that ellement of trial and error. I'm sure its possible to make any system you want with his stuff but he makes you fricken design it! lols

Peace,
cortisol

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Hello All

In brief, seems to me there is a need for some sort of routing/mixing surface for use with DAW's. Something that gives you plenty of connectivity between DAW interfaces, mic preamps and analog outboard. Something that might replace a half a patch bay but with built in mixing. Thoughts?

Hi Tim

I would be real interested if you made a small console like the Speck Li Lo (small footprint) with no pre amps, 16 line channels, with say 500 slots to accomodate your tonics/or choice of other 500 series eq's, with faders/ with a killer summing buss with HEADROOM with your signature clean ballsy sound- ie speck is vanilla in good way-but I personally would like the console to have vibe similar to the vibe of the essence - clean with a touch of colour etc. Would be good to be able to chain 2 consoles to give 32 channels if you grew into future.

And if you could bring this in the price of the Li Lo or slightly under-you have your first customer.

My 2 cents

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by lostinmusic

If 4U isn't too much there's 76 inputs on this.

Yeah-but its an ergonomic nightmare-I am sick of working on cramped RU mixers with little knobs-I want a simple ergonomic console- with killer summing/buss- with perhaps even a separate shelf under/over if it will keep the console costs down accommodating say 8 or 16 500 slots for eqs-with the 500 shelf derviong power from the main console power supply.

I would love real simplicity (ability to eq using 500 eq's) each line in as well as slapping on outboard compression on each line in, and to then eq using diff 500 eq the drum buss etc as well as further compression on subs.

The real missing item is a high end unit like speck li lo with more attitude- ie trannies on all line ins-even if it makes it little more expensive.

Sorry about second post-this is an exciting prospect if buzz makes such a unit.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[lostinmusic]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Yeah-but its an ergonomic nightmare-I am sick of working on cramped RU mixers with little knobs-I want a simple ergonomic console- with killer summing/buss- with perhaps even a separate shelf under/over if it will keep the console costs down accommodating say 8 or 16 500 slots for eqs-with the 500 shelf derviong power from the main console power supply.

I would love real simplicity (ability to eq using 500 eq's) each line in as well as slapping on outboard compression on each line in, and to then eq using diff 500 eq the drum buss etc as well as further compression on subs.

The real missing item is a high end unit like speck li lo with more attitude- ie trannies on all line ins-even if it makes it little more expensive.

Sorry about second post-this is an exciting prospect if buzz makes such a unit.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

I'm looking for something like this for myself as I'm moving my writing studio back home for a bit and need to get rid of my mixer to save on space.

I think the Speck would be a better for me it had half as many inputs but eq on the channels instead. Also, maybe only 4 busses and 4 fx returns would give more space for controls and the master section. The integrated digitally controlled patchbay idea would be great though. Once you get to 500 slots you could alienate people who don't own that format?

[JimmyTurbo]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Hi Tim

I would be real interested if you made a small console like the Speck Li Lo (small footprint) with no pre amps, 16 line channels, with say 500 slots to accomodate your tonics/or choice of other 500 series eq's, with faders/ with a killer summing buss with HEADROOM with your signature clean ballsy sound- ie speck is vanilla in good way-but I personally would like the console to have vibe similar to the vibe of the essence - clean with a touch of colour etc. Would be good to be able to chain 2 consoles to give 32 channels if you grew into future.

And if you could bring this in the price of the Li Lo or slightly under-you have your first customer.

My 2 cents

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

I like this idea.
A lot...
Oh, and leave some 500 slots for essences.
But I'm afraid it will be too expensive for me.

[Koed]

Originally Posted by Steamy Williams

That would be great if it also had 4 or more aux sends with pre/post switching.

So we're basicaly talking about an analogue line mixer in a box with digital controls.

[RKrizman]

Whatever it is, it should have some sort of affordable eq on each channel.

-R

[Brad McGowan]

Hey Tim,

I posted these ideas in another thread so I'm just going to copy and paste to add it to the discussion here:

Here's the basic concept I've been thinking about (16 channels):

input A (tracking) OR input B (mixing)
HPF / tilt EQ (optional but handy)
insert A (fully balanced, switchable)
insert A wet/dry blend (for inline parallel processing)
insert B (fully balanced switchable; can be flipped with insert A)
aux sends (can be tapped between insert A and B)
direct out (can be pre or post fader...this is sent to DAW/recorder)
pan/solo/mute
fader (with fader defeat for DAW stem summing)
buss assign (with switch that returns group output to this channel for parallel processing)

My idea is that you have the output of your mic pres patched into input A. The output of your D/A is patched into input B to do OTB summing (summing box style). This also facilitates the routing for hardware inserts within the DAW. Connected to insert A would be my rack of outboard processors like compressors and EQ's. Insert B could be more processors or in my specific application would be used to send and return signal to/from my analog tape deck. There would also be a switch that sends the return of insert B to the direct out to facilitate the method in which I use my tape deck (see videos in my signature link). The aux sends would then be hooked up to my Hearback system for musician headphone mixes. There would be a switch that places all the aux sends between inserts A and B so that when using my tape decks the way I do I can send the musicians and control room non-delayed pre-tape mixes, but still be monitoring all the outboard gear that is plugged in. The direct output would be connected to the A/D of my DAW. In tracking mode signal would flow from mic pre, outboard, tape, straight to A/D. In mixing mode I could choose to use hardware inserts within my DAW and have signal route from D/A to outboard compressor to A/D. I could also choose to do a complete OTB mix and have signal route from D/A to outboard through faders/pan/auxes/busses in the same way as a traditional mixer.

Regarding group channels. I'm sure someone clever could figure out how to just have one generic channel strip that could be configured as either an input chanel or a group channel with the use of internal jumpers. I need to think that one out a little more. There's probably some features that could be added to the group modules to allow their outputs to return to the signal path of the input channels so that one could easily do parallel processing when using their favorite outboard as hardware inserts during mixing. Another option here would be to put a wet/dry mix control on insert A so that you can do parallel processing inline.

Regarding EQ. I personally use various plugins and outboard for my equalization. I wouldn't mind seeing a very simple yet effective equalizer for tracking purposes though. I think the combination of a variable high pass filter and a tilt EQ (see Tonelux implementation) would be very simple and quick to use, while still being powerful. A full featured EQ might be necessary for some, but for the guys at the middle level it would add a lot of cost and take up a lot of real estate.

Regarding sound/tone: I prefer to have transparent and colorless. I want to add color when and where I want it and I don't want to hear the console at all. No transformers means lower cost. Use modern high speed opamps for clean sound and reduced cost. For those that need some balls, design the mix buss to allow an optional colored summing amp with transformers to be plugged similar to what Vince offers for the Speck LiLo.

If you take the lead of the SSL Matrix or the A&H Zed R16 then adding motorized DAW control fader control is not that much more of a leap in adding much need functionality. So that means dual purpose 100mm faders for both analog gain control and automated DAW fader control. Add DAW transport controls, user configurable DAW control buttons, and a simple monitor section and we'd have a real winner in my book.

I think this type of approach might work for a lot of people at the small/mid level like myself. It allows you to have all your gear plugged in all the time and with the aid of a patchbay have very flexible routing for doing a variety of different kinds of tracking and mixing work whether it be ITB, OTB, some combination, or even using an analog tape deck. The important thing would be that it's all in one unit.

Brad

[dannycurtean@yah]

Originally Posted by nikodemos

i would love to see a desk with:

- built in "V272 style" line amps (min 16)

- automated faders with dual function (both as analog mixer and DAW control)

-1 or 2 500 series slots on each channel (for preamp and eq or comp)

-2 switchable inserts on every channel (1 after the line amp and 1st 500 slot and one just before the fader)

- customizable central section (...so it could fit the exact user needs and budget too from simple summing amps to multiple buses, transformer options, extended monitoring controller functions, headphone amps etc)

- patchbay with all I/O, inserts plus enough I/O points for outboard

- reasonable price

WHY THE HELL IS NOBODY DOING THIS? SSL came close with their matrix. Id buy it if...

It had 32 floating inserts instead of 16
Didnt look like a toys-r-us toy
and was 16, 24 or 32 channels.

If they made it look more like an AWS 900, with total recall and DAW controlled automation (not its own internal automation) and it had 24 channels with 32 floating inserts....man that would do it for me. 16 ch is just not nearly enough and neither are 16 floating inserts. Its a great concept but if they expanded it, allot of people would buy it, including myself.

[dannycurtean@yah]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Hey Tim,

I posted these ideas in another thread so I'm just going to copy and paste to add it to the discussion here:

Here's the basic concept I've been thinking about (16 channels):

input A (tracking) OR input B (mixing)
HPF / tilt EQ (optional but handy)
insert A (fully balanced, switchable)
insert A wet/dry blend (for inline parallel processing)
insert B (fully balanced switchable; can be flipped with insert A)
aux sends (can be tapped between insert A and B)
direct out (can be pre or post fader...this is sent to DAW/recorder)
pan/solo/mute
fader (with fader defeat for DAW stem summing)
buss assign (with switch that returns group output to this channel for parallel processing)

My idea is that you have the output of your mic pres patched into input A. The output of your D/A is patched into input B to do OTB summing (summing box style). This also facilitates the routing for hardware inserts within the DAW. Connected to insert A would be my rack of outboard processors like compressors and EQ's. Insert B could be more processors or in my specific application would be used to send and return signal to/from my analog tape deck. There would also be a switch that sends the return of insert B to the direct out to facilitate the method in which I use my tape deck (see videos in my signature link). The aux sends would then be hooked up to my Hearback system for musician headphone mixes. There would be a switch that places all the aux sends between inserts A and B so that when using my tape decks the way I do I can send the musicians and control room non-delayed pre-tape mixes, but still be monitoring all the outboard gear that is plugged in. The direct output would be connected to the A/D of my DAW. In tracking mode signal would flow from mic pre, outboard, tape, straight to A/D. In mixing mode I could choose to use hardware inserts within my DAW and have signal route from D/A to outboard compressor to A/D. I could also choose to do a complete OTB mix and have signal route from D/A to outboard through faders/pan/auxes/busses in the same way as a traditional mixer.

Regarding group channels. I'm sure someone clever could figure out how to just have one generic channel strip that could be configured as either an input chanel or a group channel with the use of internal jumpers. I need to think that one out a little more. There's probably some features that could be added to the group modules to allow their outputs to return to the signal path of the input channels so that one could easily do parallel processing when using their favorite outboard as hardware inserts during mixing. Another option here would be to put a wet/dry mix control on insert A so that you can do parallel processing inline.

Regarding EQ. I personally use various plugins and outboard for my equalization. I wouldn't mind seeing a very simple yet effective equalizer for tracking purposes though. I think the combination of a variable high pass filter and a tilt EQ (see Tonelux implementation) would be very simple and quick to use, while still being powerful. A full featured EQ might be necessary for some, but for the guys at the middle level it would add a lot of cost and take up a lot of real estate.

Regarding sound/tone: I prefer to have transparent and colorless. I want to add color when and where I want it and I don't want to hear the console at all. No transformers means lower cost. Use modern high speed opamps for clean sound and reduced cost. For those that need some balls, design the mix buss to allow an optional colored summing amp with transformers to be plugged similar to what Vince offers for the Speck LiLo.

If you take the lead of the SSL Matrix or the A&H Zed R16 then adding motorized DAW control fader control is not that much more of a leap in adding much need functionality. So that means dual purpose 100mm faders for both analog gain control and automated DAW fader control. Add DAW transport controls, user configurable DAW control buttons, and a simple monitor section and we'd have a real winner in my book.

I think this type of approach might work for a lot of people at the small/mid level like myself. It allows you to have all your gear plugged in all the time and with the aid of a patchbay have very flexible routing for doing a variety of different kinds of tracking and mixing work whether it be ITB, OTB, some combination, or even using an analog tape deck. The important thing would be that it's all in one unit.

Brad

Must anybody add more? THAT WOULD BE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!

[Brad McGowan]

I'm going to keep posting these same wishes in any thread about future consoles until we start seeing a handful of affordable offerings hit the market. Post it and they will build it. As I've said before, companies like Buzz, Speck, Mackie, A&H, Soundcraft...these are all companies that could build this well.

Brad

[Tim Farrant]

And what about the physical design of this mixer, should it be rack mount? (which means very small knobs)

And connectors, are balanced 1/4" jacks acceptable? The DAW could connect via D25 connectors, but the other inputs/outputs might need more flexibility.

Tim

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by dannycurtean@yah

WHY THE HELL IS NOBODY DOING THIS? SSL came close with their matrix. Id buy it if...

It had 32 floating inserts instead of 16
Didnt look like a toys-r-us toy
and was 16, 24 or 32 channels.

Exactly! more inserts and.... why does it have to look like a cheap Fostex/Akai mixer (from the old days)? I hate those sunken in faders!

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

And what about the physical design of this mixer, should it be rack mount? (which means very small knobs)

And connectors, are balanced 1/4" jacks acceptable? The DAW could connect via D25 connectors, but the other inputs/outputs might need more flexibility.

Tim

My personal thought is that if you are going to add DAW control functionality then it should probably look more like a table top console. However if you are just focusing on the summing/routing portion of it then rackmount is fine. Tonelux managed to squeeze 16 channels in there. Maybe a hybrid solution is rackmount in two pieces and then contract someone to make either a wooden or metal console-looking rack to place it all in. Does that make sense? I'm just thinking aloud here.

I think balanced 1/4" jacks for everything but the connections to A/D and D/A converters which all use DB25 these days.

Tim, if you can figure out a way to not waste a huge amount of real estate with dumb aux send knobs that would be great. I'd love to see one or two knobs on each channel somehow controll all your aux sends. I don't have any thoughts on how one would implement that exactly, but I've always thought it was a big waste of space to have 6-8 knobs that I would leave set at unity gain 90% of the time because I'm feeding a Hearback system where the musician remotely controls their levels. You know what would be kind of cool is using those mini sliders that they use on graphic EQ's like the API 560. I'm just trying to think outside of the box here.

Oh yeah, another random thought. I like the idea of placing controls that are set and forget at the top of the channel strip. For instance the Neve 5088 places buss assign switches at the top of the strips. I like that. Keep the most used functions closest to the user.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Exactly! more inserts and.... why does it have to look like a cheap Fostex/Akai mixer (from the old days)? I hate those sunken in faders!

That's so you can put your keyboard on top of the mixer. Because the sliding keyboard tray hasn't been invented yet....

Brad

[cortisol]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Yeah-but its an ergonomic nightmare-I am sick of working on cramped RU mixers with little knobs-I want a simple ergonomic console- with killer summing/buss- with perhaps even a separate shelf under/over if it will keep the console costs down accommodating say 8 or 16 500 slots for eqs-with the 500 shelf derviong power from the main console power supply.

I would love real simplicity (ability to eq using 500 eq's) each line in as well as slapping on outboard compression on each line in, and to then eq using diff 500 eq the drum buss etc as well as further compression on subs.

The real missing item is a high end unit like speck li lo with more attitude- ie trannies on all line ins-even if it makes it little more expensive.

Sorry about second post-this is an exciting prospect if buzz makes such a unit.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

So you're just askin for a Speck LiLo with a different mix bus LOL.

In other words a line-mixer and not a rack mounted summing device per se and with fader no less. DOH!

Most people want to work with a control surface in front of them doing the fades. Whereas you want to work at a mixer.... So go buy a mixer.

I recon a 2-3 RU design like the Neve 8816 with 6-8 busses inserts on the busses and the master bus gets a choice of built in summing or acts like a folcrom so that you can use 500 series preamps.

You work at your DAW and use your control surface to ride faders and navigate. On individual tracks you use a mix of plug-ins and outboard from the inserts on the Buzz device and have summing options that can taps into the 500 series craze. And indeed even induce people to start to buy 500 seies modules because their are slots for them on the master section.

Peace,
cortisol

[Brad McGowan]

Am I the only person that finds it unacceptable to have all these functions we are describing being handled by 3 or 4 or 5 pieces of gear? The whole point is to have it all in one well thought out, ergonomically designed unit so that you can improve workflow.

I get the impression that some folks that suggest that others just get a control surface, mixer, patchbay, monitor controller, and summing box aren't operating or working in studios that track and mix live bands on a regular basis. I personally find it to be tedious and distracting to have to bounce around between all these various boxes when I am trying to get sounds, use my tape deck, or transition from an overdub mode to a mixdown mode. It's one thing when you are working on your own music in the comfort of your home studio, but it's another thing when you have paying clients and you are trying to be efficient with people's time.

One thing I've learned over the last few years is that gear that makes my life easier by improving my workflow has more of an impact on the product and service my studio delivers than any magic sounding box with transformers, discreet circuity, or little elves inside.

Brad

[Tim Farrant]

Originally Posted by cortisol

...I recon a 2-3 RU design like the Neve 8816 with 6-8 busses inserts on the busses and the master bus gets a choice of built in summing or acts like a folcrom so that you can use 500 series preamps....

No way this would fit in 2-3 units! 5U maybe....

[Tim Farrant]

Some good ideas coming here. What if there was a channel module (with rotary fader) that fitted into a rack mount enclosure, 16 channels wide with a seperate master section rack mount box (which could include the power supply). The same module could fit into a desk top style console with 100mm faders on a seperate panel and a central master section. In this way, 24 channel consoles could be provided.

[staudio]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Some good ideas coming here. What if there was a channel module (with rotary fader) that fitted into a rack mount enclosure, 16 channels wide with a seperate master section rack mount box (which could include the power supply). The same module could fit into a desk top style console with 100mm faders on a seperate panel and a central master section. In this way, 24 channel consoles could be provided.

I like where you are heading...

I always have thought that the LiLo was almost perfect, but needed the features of the 5088 to really be viable. Make a console with the 5088's mixing/routing features but with the LiLo style active balanced circuit design to keep costs down and signal clean.

Look hard at the features of the 5088, it is in my opinion the most flexible and desirable of all the new small mixers, not really because of the pedigree, but because of the very good routing. Stereo sends are essential, eight returns are essential, eight busses are essential, a fully featured monitor section is essential, inserts on the busses are essential, etc.

Cheers