Singers, which vocal method gets results?

[Prickstein]

Hi all,
I'm on a quest to improve my own vocal abilities and have devoted the last couple of years to the "Speech level singing" method as taught by Seth Riggs and Brett Manning.
I have both of their instructional books/cds but am not getting the results I desire.
I have practiced the exercises daily for a long time now and am very good at doing the exercises but when it comes to actually singing a song, I'm still nowhere near my own expectations. Yes I have been to several SLS teachers and they say I'm doing the exercises great.
Can anyone suggest a book/cd/dvd that they have had great success with in terms of their own progress.
A lot of the videos associated with some of the methods I've seen give examples in the style of Rob Halford or that Dream Theatre/Queensryche crap which is not what I want to do.
I would love to be able to sing modern rock like Foo Fighters, Stone Temple Pilots, Ben Harper, U2, Muse (without the falsetto), John Mayer, Powderfinger etc without my voice choking up on me and not letting me get to the pitch I hear in my head, especially in the midrange where most people seem comfortable.

[mrbowes]

James Lugo, a gearslut, has a great work out CD and DVD - check it out!

without my voice choking up on me and not letting me get to the pitch I hear in my head, especially in the midrange where most people seem comfortable.

Choking is often caused by being dry and tired....in other words, not enough water and sleep. If it's not water or sleep, then it's probably a case of over-singing.

I would continue to do lots of vocal exercises that hit the peaks and dips of your range with a variety of vowels. Then, stay well within that range when you try and sing an actual song.

Just keep at it and the results will follow.

[Absolute]

You may have unrealistic expectations

Those singers sound the way they do naturally. The one thing that I find most important is improving the quality of Your voice. Its tone that is most important.

I have excellent range. Many singers do. But is there beauty in your voice? Study singers that sound most like you-- but are better than you. Now listen carefully how they enunciate their words. Pay attention to how they start and finish their words. Loop them over and over and polish up your quality by mimicking the beauty in their voices.

That has helped me the most. Because what people want to hear, above all, is quality.

About the throat. You seem to have worked hard. Some throats, genetically, cannot sustain the force of singing for long periods. My voice could never stand a tour--no amount of teaching can change that. Thats why its important to stay within yourself--your range

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by Absolute

what people want to hear, above all, is quality.

.....and character.

I have little to no vocal range but I still need to sing, so I have tried to find that place in my voice where the emotion of the song lives.

It is so true that you need to be realistic in your expectations. Find YOUR voice, polish it up as best you can, and just keep singing.

[Prickstein]

Originally Posted by mrbowes

James Lugo, a gearslut, has a great work out CD and DVD - check it out!

Choking is often caused by being dry and tired....in other words, not enough water and sleep. If it's not water or sleep, then it's probably a case of over-singing.
.

I've been thinking about getting Lugo's DVD but there are no examples or previews to check out and I've already spent a boatload on lessons and dvd's. It would be good to hear from someone who has used his method with great success.

When I said "choke up", maybe I should of said tensed up. My duo partner is a fantastic singer, very listenable and my throat seems to tighten up when I can hear his open on similar notes.

Funny thing is that it's my mid range that sucks, where most people are comfortable. My low chest voice is very open and I sing very in tune down there. My high range has improved out of sight, I've been known to pull out Brian Johnson era AC/DC at gigs semi convincingly.
It's my damn mid range that sucks.

I've also tried Melissa Cross's Zen of Screaming. Her Scream extra cd is great for pulling brutal metal sounds but her actual "singing" exercises on the dvd do nothing for me. I hit my bridge and flip registers even more so when doing her exercises.
When doing the SLS style exercises, I get very heady around the bridges.
Not the kind of tone you'd want to sing hard rock in.

[TheRealRoach]

The best vocal coach experience I had was with someone who approached it a bit more like a doctor's checkup. First off she sings in a style that I wanted the singer in question to work towards - since there was already a predisposition there - and she asked that we bring recordings of the original material, as well as a couple tunes that we wanted to sound like. She quickly understood the techniques and got straight down to the style in question and provided a few "custom" exercises that helped address specific problems that my singer was having.

I find that there are two kinds of coaches:
- those that teach you the techniques and exercises.
- those that teach you how to SING and convey emotion and impact.

Maybe you need someone to fill in the latter?

[Prickstein]

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

I find that there are two kinds of coaches:
- those that teach you the techniques and exercises.
- those that teach you how to SING and convey emotion and impact.

Maybe you need someone to fill in the latter?

Absolutely.
It's funny, through my work as a producer I have many friends who are great singers.
I have been quizzing them on what they have learnt that has helped them become good.
Ironicaly, none of the good ones know what they are doing and the singers I know that suck are constantly talking about vocal technique.
I have checked out Rob Lunte's Pillars of Singing online but his example youtube vids make me laugh. A bit too Jack Black for my liking.... and too expensive. I'm in Australia and our dollar just took a BIG dive.....
Jaime Vendera's "Raise your voice" has also come up but he keeps referring to singers like Jim Gillette and the Dream Theatre guy. Way too Spinal Tap for me and I'm not interested in developing "whistle voice". I just wanna be able to belt out some rock more convincingly.
Maybe someone here has tried these with success?

[dbbubba]

I am going to start by warning you that I am going to piss some people off with what I am going to tell you, but you seem serious and honest in your quest to better your vocal abilities.
What I will tell you might not be what you want to hear.
If you want to REALLY be a good vocalist then there is a way.
I'll also warn you that most people are either intimidated but this, can't make the link to "rock singing" or just aren't THAT commited.
Here goes....

Most rock singers sing incorrectly.
Many, many quite famous rock vocalists are EXTREMELY limited in ability.
A few have fallen into methods and practices that allow them to pull off their vocals with a degree of stability.
Many rock singers are injuring their vocal apparatus.
The guys and gals who have fallen into a method that somehow avoids damage have a longer vocal lifetime than those who just ruin their voices.
Remember, the examples you hear are the "BEST" examples of them singing.
The ones that are good probably take lessons from real vocal coaches.

Here's the part that will anger some folks, but I have to say it.

If you really want to learn to be a vocalist you have to go to a vocal coach that teaches proper singing.
There is a long history of vocal methods that go back hundreds of years.
These people teach proven methods... not bullshit.
You might not be wise to tell them you ever sing like Brian Johnson.
These teachers are usually associated with an institution like a university.
Most also teach outside of the institution they are associated with.
They will teach you to sing properly and once you have that ability you will be able to sing almost anything to desire.
(You might not WANT to sing some stuff after you learn to sing.)

All of the "methods" that teach anything else are bullshit and a waste of your money.
This is plain and simple.
You MUST do the exercises and things that have been proven to work in order to get real results.

I know and have known a lot of "good" vocalists.
There are really two camps.
The first group are folks that have a degree of natural ability and sang a lot and developed a method that works.
The second group are the folks that have learned the proper way to sing from a REAL vocal coach.

I'll tell you this... if you put them on a stage together EVERYONE will know that the trained vocalist is the better vocalist.
Thy might have different stage personalities and acts, but there will be no doubt which is the better vocalist.
The un-trained vocalist will utter, "I can't sing that" LONG before the trained vocalist."

ROCK, COUNTRY, BLUES, JAZZ, SHOW TUNES, STANDARDS, OPERA.... it doesn't matter.
Once you learn to sing you can tackle most of these easier.
Yes, some are harder to pull off and require more skill.
There is such as having a natural ability, but the more you learn and work at singing the more you will be able to sing these styles.
AND YES.... THE PRINCIPALS IN SINGING "OPERA" DO TRANSLATE TO SINGING ROCK PROPERLY.
It is the same instrument.... it is called the human voice.

The first group might sound pretty good singing some stuff.
Maybe they have a good stage act and can entertain well.
The second group are VOCALISTS and they can usually sing anything VERY WELL.
A member of the first group KNOWS the second group vocalists are able to out-sing them.

Let me say this about the previous post about the two "types" of vocal coaches.
You first learn technique and that involves exercises.
STYLE comes from YOU as a human being.
STYLE is personal attribute that YOU have to develop.
Once you learn to sing properly you can sing in many styles.
You can also go to a wardrobe or clothing stylist as well.
Don't go for the window dressing before having a foundation to work from.

Either commit or waste your time with a compromise.
You can buy the B.S. methods on DVDs or commit yourself to learning to sing properly.
The later requires WAY more work and commitment.
It's your money and it's your choice.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time and money doing what has been proven to work over hundreds of years.

My wife who is a degree'd vocalist from a major music university added this...
You CANNOT learn to sing by watching a DVD or listening to a recording.
It requires the vocal coach to see what you are doing wrong and to TELL YOU WHEN YOU ARE DOING THINGS CORRECTLY.
It requires physical contact!
The DVD can't see, feel or hear what you are doing correctly or in-correctly..
THERE MUST BE FEEDBACK FROM THE TEACHER.
She asked... "Can you learn to play basketball by watching pros play it on TV?"
Why would learning to sing be any different?

I apologize to the folks who make money selling stuff on DVD, but you know I am right.

[mbrebes]

Ok, I will give you one free lesson to work on. There are two major problems I see with people that are having problems with their singing.

Problem 1: The higher the note, the higher the singer lifts his/her chin. As you raise your chin your wind path actually gets more restricted. If you visualize the tone punching out of the top of your head, that sometimes helps the problem. And when using a microphone, keep it slightly below your mouth, which should also help the tendency to raise your chin.

Problem 2: Most people think the tone comes from the throat, therefore they tighten their throats in an attempt to get and sustain a tone. It's really driven from the controlled source of the air. The air should be controlled by the stomach and lower back muscles driving the diaphram, which pushed the air out of your lungs. To demonstrate this, your going to need something flat and 10-20 pounds. Lay on your back on the floor and sing something. Now put the weight on your stomach and sing the same thing. For most people, their voice quality will immediately sound better. You have to train yourself to sing the same way with or without the weight on your stomach. And remember to relax the muscles in your neck.

[ScumBum]

Hey Prickstein , I've gone through the same struggle . So far its been a long road of years trying everything to obtain the voice I want , which is more of a natural singing style of speech singing . I want to sound similar of course to John Lennon and Kurt Cobain but only screaming sometimes when I want to cause this really screws your voice up . But the better I get I realize how wrong Kurt was singing , he pushed through everything , but I still want to sing like that some times but only when I want to not because of lack of ability .

I've tried that speech level singing course for awhile and didn't like it and many other vocal courses and never liked them too .

But the last 6 months I've made huge progress , and have a huge range now.

I know exactly the problem your having , YOUR PUSHING TOO HARD , too much air pressure , I know this cause I 've been there . Your pushing too much when you go to head voice . Back up the volume to where its super quiet and practice this way . Practice at low levels !! Its hard to understand but if your putting ANY effort and tighting any muscles in the body your pushing and struggling . I'm not saying this is how you always sing but you should be able to hit any note you want without any effort . You ADD the effort later when you want to change the tone , like for a growl or scream , but not because its a high note or hard to hit .



The best guy is Mark Baxter heres his website VOICELESSON.COM - MARK BAXTER VOCAL STUDIOS

He has a CD called "Sing Like An Idol" , its pretty cheesy but it is awesome if you follow exactly what he says . He covers a bunch of stuff on singing but I just practice the first 4 tracks which are , warm up , expanding range , tone , strength power . Doing all 4 tracks takes 20min , I do a couple tracks a few times so its around 30 min of exercises .

I also practice into a Korg tuner Buy Korg CA-30 Chromatic Tuner | Tuners | Musician's Friend

Practice the CD with headphones on singing into the tuner and you can monitor your pitch . I've found placing the tuner on top of a book on your lap works best for the tuner to pick up your voice . Holding it in front of your face doesn't work that great .

After the 30 Mins of exercises I then practice singing songs the rest of the day .

I also get my acoustic guitar and figure out the vocal melody on it , then play the melody on the guitar and sing along with it so it guides the notes for me .

Also record your self singing alot , being able to hear yourself helps with adjusting your tone .


The main thing is DON'T PUSH AT ALL !! unless you want to push for different tone , not because a note is hard to hit . Every note should take no effort at all . That falsetto tone you want to avoid is from too much air pressure in your head voice .

Every note should be free and easy ,

Don't get weighed down with alot of the BS vocal exercises . I bet most of the people you want to sing like didn't even take one lesson . Just sing alot and have fun .

[Sounds Great]

All people were not meant to be singers. Some have natural abilities that can be improved upon with proper training and practice. Others will never be great singers no matter what.

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

All people were not meant to be singers. Some have natural abilities that can be improved upon with proper training and practice. Others will never be great singers no matter what.

Thats not true . They have done studies on great opera singers and some of them physically had disadvantages with their vocal cords and nasal cavity but are considered the best singers in the world .

Whereas people that never thought they could sing actually had physical advantages that should give them an incredible voice but they thought that they could never sing .

If you can speak you can sing ,

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by ScumBum

Thats not true . They have done studies on great opera singers and some of them physically had disadvantages with their vocal cords and nasal cavity but are considered the best singers in the world .

Whereas people that never thought they could sing actually had physical advantages that should give them an incredible voice but they thought that they could never sing .

You are overlooking a minor detail, pitch. You have it or you don't.

If you can speak you can sing

There are so many examples to disprove that it isn't even funny.

[blue shades]

I agree entirely with the view that you cannot learn singing from books, DVDs, or anything of that ilk. A competent tutor is essential.
Incidentally, one of the commonest faults with bad singers is failure to achieve proper diaphragmic breathing - a good tutor will drill you into carrying out that process (and many others) automatically. Finding that tutor is your next step.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Prickstein

Absolutely.
It's funny, through my work as a producer I have many friends who are great singers.
I have been quizzing them on what they have learnt that has helped them become good.
Ironicaly, none of the good ones know what they are doing and the singers I know that suck are constantly talking about vocal technique.
I have checked out Rob Lunte's Pillars of Singing online but his example youtube vids make me laugh. A bit too Jack Black for my liking.... and too expensive. I'm in Australia and our dollar just took a BIG dive.....
Jaime Vendera's "Raise your voice" has also come up but he keeps referring to singers like Jim Gillette and the Dream Theatre guy. Way too Spinal Tap for me and I'm not interested in developing "whistle voice". I just wanna be able to belt out some rock more convincingly.
Maybe someone here has tried these with success?

Yep.

The more I think about singing, the more I try, seems like the worse I get. Still, I'm actually endeavoring to do some woodshedding, concentrate on some of my concerns, figure it will screw me up for a while, but try to improve my fundamentals, anyhow, and then try to 'forget' all that conscious learning and relearn how to sing unconsciously, all over again, this time, hopefully, with improved basic skills.

[dbbubba]

If you REALLY want to know why most people can't sing very well then read the majority of these posts.
There is mis-information and stupid conclusions one after the other here.
If you want to learn to sing well then go find a teacher that can teach you how to sing well.
I PROMISE YOU THAT ALMOST NONE OF THE ADVICE HERE IS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE THAT KNOW HOW TO SING VERY WELL.
I don't, but I have been with my wife who has been through it all and teaches.
I learned what I am saying through her.

You learn pitch.
It is called pitch recognition.
You are NOT born with it or born without it.
It takes practice.
A piano is great place to learn it.
Pitch recognition is this: "sing a C... now sing the 6th... the third."

As you learn to sing properly you learn what it feels like to sing the correct pitches.
It is just like you know what it feels like to play and A or E or G or what-ever on a guitar.
Your vocal apparatus is your instrument.
THAT is how it is taught in REAL music schools.
You learn your instrument and learn to connect with it.
It just so happen that the instrument you are using is part of your physical anatomy.
It is still a physical thing making sound in the physical world.
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT AND YOUR VOICE AS A MUSICAL INSTRUMENTIS THAT THE LATER IS PART OF YOUR BODY AND PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING IT AS AN INSTRUMENT.
It is mental hurdle to some people.

Some people are gifted with a natural INSTRUMENT.
They are lucky.
Still, everyone that is not physically handicapped has a voice.
They can all learn to sing.
For timeless reasons it is easier for some people than others.
IT REQUIRES EFFORT AND IT DOES NOT HAPPEN WITHOUT WORK.

If you really want to sing properly and well then do what all of the GOOD singers do.
A REAL VOCAL COACH.

Your definition of a "good" singer needs to be made with the knowledge of what a "good" singer actually is for this to matter anyways.

[Unclenny]

The mastery of any serious discipline requires.......

Natural Talent

A Good Teacher

Endless Practice

Should any of the above be found lacking progress can still be made by emphasising the other two.

[dbbubba]

You can have natural talent and have an endless amount of time to practice, but wouldn't it be better to also have an EXPERIENCED teacher that knew when to tell you when you were going down the wrong path and when you were on the right path?

Just because humans can talk doesn't mean that with enough practice you will be able to automatically sing correctly.

HINT: most people who can sing well also SPEAK well

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

You learn pitch.
It is called pitch recognition.
You are NOT born with it or born without it.
It takes practice.
A piano is great place to learn it.
Pitch recognition is this: "sing a C... now sing the 6th... the third."

As you learn to sing properly you learn what it feels like to sing the correct pitches.
It is just like you know what it feels like to play and A or E or G or what-ever on a guitar.
.

I use my guitar to play the melody and let it guide the notes while I sing . After awhile you get the coordination to hit the notes and your pitch gets rock solid . Or use a tuner like I mentioned earlier .

The hardest thing to describe though is when your doing everything correctly cause its easy to push too much while singing and this affects your pitch and tone .

RELAX RELAX RELAX


dbbubba you are right on , theres so much BS out there and finding a good teacher is very difficult .

[doncaparker]

OK, I started reading this thread out of mere curiosity, but now I feel the need to chime in.

Here's a suggestion out of left field, and it should not cost you anything:

Have you tried singing in a choir?

There are all sorts of choral opportunities out there. Churches have choirs. Communities have choruses.

Now, this is not going to teach you how to sing in your chosen style. However, I believe that, in order to be a GOOD vocalist in any style of music, you need to learn some fundamentals, and then use those to help you develop your genre-specific quirks into actual music.

I am not that fond of classical music, or traditional church choir music. However, I have always sung in church choirs, and it helps me tremendously.

Think it through. You need someone to teach you how to sing with proper technique, right? A good choir director does that. You need to practice reading music, right? You can't be around choral music without picking up the basics of reading music. You need to learn to control pitch, tone, volume, dynamics, enunciation, etc., right? Singing in a choir helps you with all that stuff. And, it's free.

In addition to learning how to sing, you might actually pick up some good life habits too, like going to church regularly.

Good luck.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I PROMISE YOU THAT ALMOST NONE OF THE ADVICE HERE IS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE THAT KNOW HOW TO SING VERY WELL.

Well, as long as you promised.

[Bob Vinsick]

I have been using Brett Manning's Singing Success (speach level singing) system mentioned in the 1st post of this thread for about 5 years off and on now. I have to say that it has helped me to sing higher notes for longer durations, with much more ease.

I used to kill myself, now I can actually sing the notes. I wouldn't call myself a great singer. I'm light years better now than I was 5 years ago. I'm putting more style into my voice and getting more life out of it.

One of the best things you can do as a singer is record yourself and try different things until you get the desired tone that you're looking for. Listen critically to your recordings and learn to hate the bad habits and things you do that don't sound good, so you will quit doing them.

For me, vowel pronounciation is probably the thing that I need to work on the most. The next place is at my bridges or breaks. The first break is the hardest to get smooth.

The bottom line is to learn to get the most out of what you have. That's it. Do what you do well and if you can't do something, don't do it.

[dbbubba]

Yes, people in choirs generally are required to sing good.
Many good singers and vocalists learned to sing in church.

The key is being able to identify "good singing" in the first place.

I was talking with my wife about this subject and I started asking her "what about so-and-so... how does he fit into the equation.
Then we got to Joe Cocker singing "You Are So Beautiful to Me"...
She made the point that he actually DOES know how to sing very well and could probably sing that song in a straight tone.
She sang a couple of lines (effortless stuff for her) and said that he absolutely HAD to know how to sing well to be able to sing through his break the way he does (or did.)

My advice is still: pick good examples to aspire to and find a legitimate vocal coach.

[FeatheredSerpent]

Originally Posted by doncaparker

In addition to learning how to sing, you might actually pick up some good life habits too, like going to church regularly.

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm.

[doncaparker]

Not the tiniest bit of sarcasm was intended. It is my opinion that, on average, people benefit from going to church regularly. I certainly allow for the possibility that many disagree with that opinion, and their views are legitimate and fine with me. But, I hold the opinion, nonetheless. Maybe we can agree to disagree on the efficacy of church attendance.

And, no, I'm not a Bible thumper, and I don't think you are going to Hell if you disagree with me. Whether there even is a Hell, and whether God sends people there, are issues that are above my pay grade.

Back to the topic: If you go to church for no other reason, a decent church choir director is usually a pretty good music educator; they can't do their job otherwise. You can learn a lot from singing in a church choir.

And there's a gig every week.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by doncaparker

And there's a gig every week.

Doesn't a "gig" usually mean pay?

[FeatheredSerpent]

I believe they pay you in wine