TG and API summing vs. full API console:sonically console wins

[RoundBadge]

I've had the TG and API summing mixers on demo for over a week now.both seemed to add focus and punch to PT versus ITB [which Frequency wise sounded OK but had a smearyness to the overall mix in comparison...less definition and depth]..
Well... I took some of summing stemmed PT sessions to the studio[ along with the API/TG boxes] with the API 32 input console and ran the stems all faders leveled [Unity gain] and honestly ...the console won sonically every time..MORE headroom,depth,punch,etc..Whats the deal?
Is it all the old line amps on every channel?I have no idea..I'm not a real technical guy.I think the API summing box is passive to 2 output line amps?[ala folcrom] and the TG is amped on every channel, then summed to 2 more TG style line amps at the stereo buss.Funny thing with the TG is, I had an absolute Bitchh of a time getting good level back to PT with
out slamming the outputs[Pretty dissapointing,but maybe this particular unit was F*cked up,I don't know]
And the API 8200/7800 sounded pretty good ,definetely an improvement..but pretty much sonically,just couldn't beat the console.

Any of you guys going back and forth between you're Folcrom's,D2B's,API etc summing boxes and large class A[Neve,API,Trident,SSL etc] consoles hearing the differences?..
Because so far sonically ,I just ain't completely convinced with these new boxes ..know what I mean?
But then ,what the hell do I know I still find it easier to get there with the console [and I'm not just talking ergonomics..faders,channel eq, auxes ,busses,etc] Am I just fooling myself?

Just some thoughts

[Shaman]

The PRICE difference between the full blown 32 ch. API console and the summing boxes should justify the SOUND difference.

Still the simple old law: The more expensive...the better....

Maybe the summing boxes sound worse - but if they come close at all at a 30 th of the console price - this is quite spectacular for most of us...

[jlotto]

Originally Posted by Shaman

The price difference between the full blown 32 ch. API console and the summing boxes should justify the difference.

Maybe the summing boxes sound worse - but if they come close at all at a 30 th of the console price - this is quite spectacular for most of us...

what he said

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by Shaman

The PRICE difference between the full blown 32 ch. API console and the summing boxes should justify the SOUND difference.

Still the simple old law: The more expensive...the better....

Maybe the summing boxes sound worse - but if they come close at all at a 30 th of the console price - this is quite spectacular for most of us...

ditto and well said.
i own the API 8200A and it has made a huge difference for me.
i certainly do not expect it to come nowhere near a full blown console with built-in pre's, eq's etc...
i also have a hard time getting a strong signal back into my computer, i mean, i do get a signal and it's good, it's just that i wish that it was louder.
i called API and the tech guy said to check the trim pots on the 2520 chips and make sure they are "all the way to the right", i did, and i think they are but i have to double check with API.
that said, i would not part with my line mixer for nothing.
alright, maybe not for nothing but you get the point.

FM

FM is beating plowshares into swords.

[pgk]

if i were to take a very wild guess i'd say you're hearing the benefits of the massive power supply in the console.

MORE headroom,depth,punch,etc.

yessir, that's what you get with a big-ass power supply!

[Shaman]

So may I ask this v. stupid question:

If someone builds that MASSIVE power supply for my summing box - will it sound the same....?

[RoundBadge]

Thanks guys. All great responses..
I'm strictly speaking from a sonic point of view,
not from a money perspective.not bells n' whistles[pre's,busses,inserts,metering,etc]
Mind you,there is an improvement from ITB with these boxes...yes sir.. .. BUT
in other words:does the 7800/8200 actually SOUND as good as an API legacy center section?or is it something else all together?
thats their claim,isnt it?
and the TG..well I have no real reference for that one..but headroom wise...wasn't even close to the real console[unless of course,giving the benefit of the doubt ,that this particular unit may have issues.I've seen stranger things...]
FM: just curious,have you tried summing directly out of you'r 8200a's outputs ,bypassing the 7800[disconnected from the PSU as well]alltogether?
We noticed a bump in the output...you might for the sake of experimentation,want to try that..YMMV of course
The 8200a on it's own had condsiderably more output than the TG!
Or like pkg said... the PSU's could be a good place to start.
Not to diss anyone out there for you're purchases..
Obviously it's working for you...
and thats what really counts..
thumbsup

[Jim Williams]

If you think you like the sonics of the full console over the box, wait until you get rid of the PT's! Then you really will like the console.

Everything else is just polishing the turd.
Try a Radar, etc. and you will know what I mean.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[eligit]

well isn't it just a matter of:

if you use stems you are still doing some serious amounts of digital summing. right?

if you just use a console you are not.

am i missing something?

[Ollie]

I use this setup. 48 channels of api 8200: 24 for DAW, 24 for tape. All of this with the master section and the API 2500 compressor fits in a nice 8 slot rack.

The sound is very good. Better than an API console? Well I am familar with the API 2488 and they are different. The API 2488 has lots of low midrange goo! I find the 8200 to be clearer, but still punchy. It has warmth, but not the same warmth as the 2488 console. The 2488 has some drawbacks. You would have to scoop alot of that low mid stuff out.

8200 Features: 2 aux sends, enough for a couple of extra effects. Lots of inputs and outputs that make this a usable setup. I use the insert button to control what comes from the pres or what is coming from the DAW. Direct output allow me to feed a dedicated headphone amp.

Compared to a console, there is much more patching at the bay while tracking and tons more at mixdown. No built in Eqs. So everything is a patch.

No Faders: Faders would be great, but this unit has tiny knobs. Still usable, but more a pain.

Build quality: I would say that the build quality of the earlier 8200's was better. The mute insert and solo buttons were placed better, higher to the touch. Appears to have been more quality control.

The 7800 master section is extremely full featured and easy to use.

Would l love to have a full featured console, you bet. I cannot afford the 45,000 for a console that will get me close to the sound quality.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If you think you like the sonics of the full console over the box, wait until you get rid of the PT's! Then you really will like the console.

Everything else is just polishing the turd.
Try a Radar, etc. and you will know what I mean.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Absolutely Jim ..thats a given!
And PT vs. Tape NO CONTEST!
and a lotta bad Profoolers out there[many of which have never used tape or Radar]
call me to fix stuff ie: make it sound better

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by eligit

well isn't it just a matter of:

if you use stems you are still doing some serious amounts of digital summing. right?

if you just use a console you are not.

am i missing something?

Actually nope,for the sake of a stab at consistancy...We actually used the excact same stems through the console..So the digital summing[AND converters:2 192 i/o clocked to lavry blues...stereo ins and monitor outs :Lavry's] I might add where very much the same as tested in my home studio

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Thanks guys. All great responses..
FM: just curious,have you tried summing directly out of you'r 8200a's outputs ,bypassing the 7800[disconnected from the PSU as well]alltogether?
thumbsup

yep, that's exactly how i do it.
don't get me wrong, i love the results, i ain't going back to ITB summing anytime soon that's for sure.
and as Ollie pointed out, the little knobs are a pain but i don't mind it so much.

cheers!

FM

FM shot the sheriff but he spared his deputy.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

ditto and well said.
i own the API 8200A and it has made a huge difference for me.
i certainly do not expect it to come nowhere near a full blown console with built-in pre's, eq's etc...
i also have a hard time getting a strong signal back into my computer, i mean, i do get a signal and it's good, it's just that i wish that it was louder.
i called API and the tech guy said to check the trim pots on the 2520 chips and make sure they are "all the way to the right", i did, and i think they are but i have to double check with API.
that said, i would not part with my line mixer for nothing.
alright, maybe not for nothing but you get the point.

FM

FM is beating plowshares into swords.

Sorry FM... disregard the dissconection thing if you don't use the 7800 as well
stike

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

yep, that's exactly how i do it.
don't get me wrong, i love the results, i ain't going back to ITB summing anytime soon that's for sure.
and as Ollie pointed out, the little knobs are a pain but i don't mind it so much.

cheers!

FM

FM shot the sheriff but he spared his deputy.

Copy that sir!

[RoundBadge]

Just curious..What types of music are you guys using youre summing devices with?
Acoustic based,POP,Hip Hop,rock and roll?..
i do a lot of indie based rock: sometimes wall of guitars.. big drums. and the summing does make a difference.
I just had lengthy a discussion with a good recording buddy who does a lot of mellow acoustic/ambient stuff and he didn't feel the need for any outboard summing..
I half jokingly told him: try a wall of cranked marshalls and slammin' Bonhamesqe drums ..then tell me what you think about youre digital 2 buss.

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Just curious..What types of music are you guys using youre summing devices with?
Acoustic based,POP,Hip Hop,rock and roll?..
i do a lot of indie based rock: sometimes wall of guitars.. big drums. and the summing does make a difference.
I just had lengthy a discussion with a good recording buddy who does a lot of mellow acoustic/ambient stuff and he didn't feel the need for any outboard summing..
I half jokingly told him: try a wall of cranked marshalls and slammin' Bonhamesqe drums ..then tell me what you think about youre digital 2 buss.

i do all kinds of stuff... i have some stuff on my website if you wanna hear it.
indie rock you might call it? i dunno...
i need to update it though, with some new stuff.

i find the point you're bringing up very interesting, imho, anyone can benefit from OTB summing no matter what they create.
i love the way my softsynths sound when i sum them on the API mixer.

FM

FM is a proud pioneer of the lost weekend.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Actually nope,for the sake of a stab at consistancy...We actually used the excact same stems through the console..So the digital summing[AND converters:2 192 i/o clocked to lavry blues...stereo ins and monitor outs :Lavry's] I might add where very much the same as tested in my home studio

thanks for the clarification!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Ollie

The sound is very good. Better than an API console? Well I am familar with the API 2488 and they are different. The API 2488 has lots of low midrange goo! I find the 8200 to be clearer, but still punchy. It has warmth, but not the same warmth as the 2488 console. The 2488 has some drawbacks. You would have to scoop alot of that low mid stuff out.

I don't think you can really compare any of the API rack stuff to an old API desk like a 2488. At this point the console is what, 20-30 years old? The tranny's are different, the op-amps are old, what about the caps? Some of the extra "warmth" or smear is probably coming from old age and that may or may not be a good thing sonically, YMMV. And yeah, the power supplys are going to account for some difference too.

Originally Posted by Ollie

Compared to a console, there is much more patching at the bay while tracking and tons more at mixdown. No built in Eqs. So everything is a patch.

It's kind of like comparing an apple to an orange to a certain degree. In a console, your signal is going through all the extra circutry for the EQ's, sends etc. while the 8200/7800 is more like the jukebox (monitor section) of an old console. There's less stuff in the signal path, so if you want an EQ you have to patch it in. It keeps the path shorter and keeps the cost down. If you do need pre's and EQ's on every channel then you don't need an 8200, you need a full blown desk.

One thing has me curious though since your saying that you can't get enough level back into the box...are you respecting 0VU at +4? If you are then the mix should be hitting the converters somewhere around the -15dBfs mark. If your trying to print back and tag 0dBfs that'll equal somewhere around +10VU, maybe +12 unless you recalibrate your converters.

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

One thing has me curious though since your saying that you can't get enough level back into the box...are you respecting 0VU at +4? If you are then the mix should be hitting the converters somewhere around the -15dBfs mark. If your trying to print back and tag 0dBfs that'll equal somewhere around +10VU, maybe +12 unless you recalibrate your converters.

dude, THAT is my conundrum.
i just got off the phone with a (VERY helpfull, knowledgeable and nice) tech guy at API and the story is pretty much the same. this is as hot as my signal is gonna get.

i have also talked to motu, i use a 2408 mk3 and they said that it's not that.
the converters take their cue from the DAW and has nothing to do with calibration.

i dunno man, there's gotta be a way, and i must confess i have no idea where to begin when it comes to calibration.

maybe i should start a thread...

FM

FM... through thick and thin.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

dude, THAT is my conundrum.
i just got off the phone with a (VERY helpfull, knowledgeable and nice) tech guy at API and the story is pretty much the same. this is as hot as my signal is gonna get.

i have also talked to motu, i use a 2408 mk3 and they said that it's not that.
the converters take their cue from the DAW and has nothing to do with calibration.

i dunno man, there's gotta be a way, and i must confess i have no idea where to begin when it comes to calibration.

Ahhh...calibration...one the things that seperate the men from the mice. Ya know, back in the day the engineers used to wear lab coats. LOL

Honestly, you really should be respecting the rule of 0VU at +4 to -15dBfs. Tha will ample headroom for peaks (as well as a 40 track buildup) and won't tax the analog stages of your mixer, outboard gear or the analog stage of the ADC. If you drive it up to peak at or near 0dBfs you'll be running your analog gear an average of 12dB hotter then it was designed to be. If you need the extra level to make clients happy I'd leave it for mastering or put an L2 or whatever limiter you want on there, get it from the digital side and not from the analog. I used to print everything as close to 0dBfs as I could, when I started backing the levels down I found that the digital gear started to sound better because I wasn't driving and taxing the analog stuff as much.

If you can't calibrate the Motu converters then there's nothing you can do anyway. But, assuming you could calibrate the converters, you'd get a 1khz tone going through the mixer and set the output of that for 0VU from the mixer. Then look at the input of the digital converter and see where the tone is hitting on the digital side. Usually it's -15dBfs but it might be anywhere from -18 to -12dBfs (with -12 being way too hot IMHO, there isn't enough headroom there) and then you would adjust the input gain on the ADC to whatever standard you want. IIRC, ADAT's and Tascam DA-XX's were set to -15dBfs as referenced to 0VU. I like to leave a bit more headroom so I cal'd my rig to -18dBfs and in five years haven't encountered any problems.

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Ahhh...calibration...one the things that seperate the men from the mice. Ya know, back in the day the engineers used to wear lab coats. LOL

Honestly, you really should be respecting the rule of 0VU at +4 to -15dBfs. Tha will ample headroom for peaks (as well as a 40 track buildup) and won't tax the analog stages of your mixer, outboard gear or the analog stage of the ADC. If you drive it up to peak at or near 0dBfs you'll be running your analog gear an average of 12dB hotter then it was designed to be. If you need the extra level to make clients happy I'd leave it for mastering or put an L2 or whatever limiter you want on there, get it from the digital side and not from the analog. I used to print everything as close to 0dBfs as I could, when I started backing the levels down I found that the digital gear started to sound better because I wasn't driving and taxing the analog stuff as much.

If you can't calibrate the Motu converters then there's nothing you can do anyway. But, assuming you could calibrate the converters, you'd get a 1khz tone going through the mixer and set the output of that for 0VU from the mixer. Then look at the input of the digital converter and see where the tone is hitting on the digital side. Usually it's -15dBfs but it might be anywhere from -18 to -12dBfs (with -12 being way too hot IMHO, there isn't enough headroom there) and then you would adjust the input gain on the ADC to whatever standard you want. IIRC, ADAT's and Tascam DA-XX's were set to -15dBfs as referenced to 0VU. I like to leave a bit more headroom so I cal'd my rig to -18dBfs and in five years haven't encountered any problems.

words of wisdom to be sure.

i got off the phone with a tech from apogee who said that yes, i could drive my rosetta to go hotter by doing exactly what you described above.
BUT, i think i'm gonna stay the way i am.
it's not like i'm getting a super weak signal back in my final track and if i slap an L2 on it, which i always do anyway, i get a good sounding final track.

i agree with you, no need to overdrive things, besides, if i start messing with calibration and sh_t i know NOTHING about at this stage well... that's just asking for trouble.

peace!

FM

FM is an accident waiting to happen.

[Ollie]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs I don't think you can really compare any of the API rack stuff to an old API desk like a 2488. At this point the console is what, 20-30 years old? The tranny's are different, the op-amps are old, what about the caps? Some of the extra "warmth" or smear is probably coming from old age and that may or may not be a good thing sonically, YMMV. And yeah, the power supplys are going to account for some difference too.

That is what I am saying. Even if the 2488 is in tip top shape, there is alot more transformers, bussing etc that has an effect on the sound. This can be desirable or undesirable. Depends.