Specific Drum Miking Advice Needed

[TYY]

Please bear with me, as this may get long.

I am tracking drums for an Alt.Country/Americana project this weekend. This will be done in a quite large living room with relatively low ceilings. The room is pretty damped.

I will do some experimenting with mics, but I have very limited time to set up and track 6 tunes, and I am curious to know what some of the more experienced engineers here would do.

Here are my mics:

AT4050 (2)
AT3035 (2)
ADK TC
SP C4 (2)
MXL V67G
MXL 603s (2)
MD421
SM57 (2)
SM58 (3)
EV RE15 (2)

My preamp situation is a bit thin:

Peavey VMP2
Presonus MP20 (Jensen trannies)
Mackie and behringer board pres (34)

The only new mics I have since I last tracked drums are the 4050's so I don't know how they are best utilized. I have used the 3035s as overheads and did not like them at all. I have used the C4s as overheads and was quite pleased with the cymbal sound.

Here is my current plan:

421 in kick
57 on snare top
C4 ORTF OH
AT4050 Stereo Room (Lately I have enjoyed a fair amount of room mic in the mix, keeping the OH down a bit, as the drummer hits the cymbals very hard and the OH's can be very cymbal heavy)
Maybe a 58 or 603 on snare shell? (I usually mic the under snare, but I've never used it come mix time)
Toms? I usually don't mic them, but I suppose if I have enough stands (doubtful), I could put the RE15s on the toms?

Also, which mics would you use with which preamps?


What would you do? Or perhaps I should ask- What Would Walters Do?


Thanks!!

[Drumsound]

If the room sounds cool use the 4050 in omni. I like to put them on straight stands at their lowest position. Use a mic cable or tape measure and make the equidistant from the BD.

I'd try something else on the SD, but I hate 57 on SD. And keep those Mackie and Behringer pre's as far from the snare as possible, especially if you use the 57.

Build your sound from the OH and room mics and add from there.

Read William Wittman's "Relish" thread here and find the recorderman OH thread on recording.org.

[TYY]

"If the room sounds cool use the 4050 in omni. I like to put them on straight stands at their lowest position. Use a mic cable or tape measure and make the equidistant from the BD."

What would recommend as a starting point for distance? Also, what angle between them and the kit?

"I'd try something else on the SD, but I hate 57 on SD. And keep those Mackie and Behringer pre's as far from the snare as possible, especially if you use the 57."

Agreed! The 57 sounds like cardboard ass through those pres. It sounds decent through the presonus and pretty fat through the VMP2, though I prefer to save the VMP2 for OH/room as it is much more open sounding than the MP20 which is very focused/tight sounding.

"Build your sound from the OH and room mics and add from there."

That is my usual approach, but now I am thinking about building from the room mics; going AT4050s into the VMP2 as my main sound.


"Read William Wittman's "Relish" thread here and find the recorderman OH thread on recording.org"

I have read that great thread, and I am familiar with the recorderman method. I tried it on my last project using the AT3035s. The tom sounds were nice but the imaging was kinda weird, and the cymbals sounded terrible, which I blame solely on the grainy top end of the AT3035. I've used in the C4s in ORTF and like the result, even through behringer pres. I think I like the keep the drums from getting too wide, do you think recorderman or spaced pairs ends up with a wider image? The ORTF was a nice balance between the very narrow XY and the wide/fuzzy imaging of the recorderman, so I'm tempted to use it again. I was trying to decide between the C4s and the 4050s.

Thanks for making it through my post!

[mml]

Well, just to make things interesting, here's what I'd do:

ADK TC FOK about 4 feet out, pointing slightly down.
4050s in Cardiod, XY, Just above the cymbal line, directly above the TC
C4 on side of snare, about 4-6 inches out and about 1-2 inches from bottom of the snare. Placement here is critical. This only works if the player doesn't lay into the hi-hat too much.
C4 on Floor tom or 421 if you don't like it and you're not using it elsewhere, like--
421 on Kick or rack if needed

You'll get most of your sound from the FOK, so use the Peavey there and on snare
Presonus on OHs. It's alt-country, so why worry about a crazy stereo spread, right?

I'm not a big fan of the 421 sound, so some people might say put that on snare if the C4 doesn't work, but I'd just go with the 57. 421's sound too hollow/metallic to me. I know, I'm weird. I don't like it on kick either, but I can deal with it on toms. I love me a 441 on snare though (or anywhere else, for that matter)

[Winey]

I would do a Glyn Johns style setup with the 4050's with the 421 or RE20 on kick.
Alt country and this type of setup go perfect together.

[cgarges]

I'd use the 4050s in an MS setup out in front of the kit. You can use the distance from the kit to determine the overall ambience and the height of the mics to determine a bit of the drums/cymbals relationship. I've done this in drier-sounding rooms and it works well. Nine times out of ten, I prefer the sound of a cardioid center mic, even though there are good arguments for using an omni center. If you feel you need more definition from the cymbals, you can add an overhead mic (I'd go mono).

Tony's spaced omni suggestion with the 4050s is also a good one. I've done that a bunch and been very pleased with the results.

In a pinch, the 603s can sound pretty cool on snare.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Jules]

Perhaps orientate the kit in the middle and facing the longest corners.. (diagonally) to avoid 'square room' early reflections..(or at least confuse them a little... )

If the ceilings are low, use a thick carpet / rug under to prevent ceiling floor 'bounce back'

(props to Loudist for those tips)

Record a bit - play it back - shift the mic's - record a bit more - play it back etc...

[TYY]

Well, some of these comments are making me think I should use the 4050s through the VMP2 as my "main" drum sound. I have never used a pair of mics out in front of the kit as the main drum image source. Come mix time, what will be the advantages/disadvantages of M/S vs. space pair? What about ORTF, does that work well in this scenario?

I know the M/S has advantages concerning phase, anything else I should think about? I don't want to regret my decision come mix time! I guess I need to make a decision quick, because i am setting up the kit today, will be tracking tomorrow.



Thanks all

[cgarges]

In addition to mono compatibility, MS gives you the ability to adjust the width by varying the relationship between mid and side signals. Spaced pair miking will give you all sorts of differing cues, which can be cool in the right circumstances. ORTF could work, as could XY, as could one mic in the right spot in the room.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

Build your sound from the OH and room mics and add from there.

Read William Wittman's "Relish" thread here and find the recorderman OH thread on recording.org.

This is one school of thought and when done correctly, can yield the most convincing, real sounding drums.

Just to give a different perspective:
In rock mixes, lately I'm moving away from this concept. The main reason is that I like a strong center channel and I'm getting better results by focussing on the things that build the center channel: kick, snare, bass and lead vocal.
Therefore, I like to start with getting the close kick and snare mic happening together with the bass. If these are working well and sounding like you want to, perhaps add a mono room mic for some depth and "drumkit feel", but still everything is mono. Then add some stereo overheads to get some width and more space around the drums...

So what I'm saying: it's always good to spend time on the overheads and room mics, but make sure you get what you need from close kick and snare.

Good luck,
Dirk

[Drumsound]

Dirk,

Great idea too! A+ for the "now for something different" post.

TYY,

Put the 4050 5-7 (or more? I run out of room at that point) feet out from the from of the BD toed in twords it a bit. I try all kind of things and almost always come back to this because it gibves me more that anything I've tried.

YMMV.

If anyone here's gonna be at TapeOpCon, I'm on the drum recording panel Friday at 10:00 (or maybe 11:00).