How Many Of You Are Layering SS Snare Samples ?

[sage691]

I've been messing around with this lately and the results have been way better than just using a single Z1 snare sample. I have the 2.0 Elite Mixer Edition, and just last night I layered the Z1 of the Panty Snr. with the Z1 of the Nirvana Snr., just for the chourus section of this song that really speeds up from the verse. This really blew me away and exceeded my expectations! What I did was to clone the trigger snare track, then insert 2 drumagogs and set one for only "cracks" on the Nirvana snr. and the other for only "hard" hits on the Panty Snr. The end result is a very in your face type snare sound that fits the song extremely well.

So I am now convinced that this must be how alot of these drum sounds that I'm hearing on records are being acheived these days. The difference of the 2 sounds together is not subtle. It's a creative process and you need to spend some time layering and experimenting and not just settling for that one snare sample for more demanding tracks.

Anybody else out there who is into the whole layering thing (especially snares) and has some additional advice to share ?

[greatgreatriver]

Yeah I'm doing it all the time!

We where working on a song and I didn't know that the chorus would be pretty guitar heavy when we started tracking the drums so the drum track was way too soft for the chorus when I added several layers of rocking guitars. I made a copy of the top snare and added a second snare with more grit and layered it with distortion etc and it worked great! I also added more click to the kick and recorded a second cymbal track to get more excitement...

There are some layering on the drums on the soft part to... It's not finished but check it out!

http://www.evileyedcherry.com/music/dump.mp3

[Karloff70]

Common practice, I would have thought.......play with pitch and envelopes comes to mind....

[hakim]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Common practice, I would have thought...

I agree... and the drums need to be tuned just like the real thing... I think that is what Karloff70 is getting at with respect to playing with pitch, etc.

[sage691]

Well, yeah I just generally do that by ear. Just go through the samples until you find the first one that "sounds right", which usually means that it matches the tuning of the original kit's snare that gets captured in the OHs and the room mics. Then layer from there.

So I guess this is more "common practice" in major rock/pop productions these days than most would imagine ? In other words, we are basically NEVER hearing just the real snare ?

Originally Posted by hakim

I agree... and the drums need to be tuned just like the real thing... I think that is what Karloff70 is getting at with respect to playing with pitch, etc.

[chymer]

I usually layer up to 3 snares.....1 mono crack, 1 mono fat and one stereo ambience.

I use drumagog and you can tune the sample to the original snare easily with a "pitch" parameter.

Mind you, after printing the samples from drumagog, I do spend a rediculous amount of time realigning and listening carefully to make sure evey single snare hit has the best phase relationships with eachother.....when you have 3 samples and a real snare it takes a while. I listen in mono.
Once thats done bring up the overheads in mono with the snare " blend" and check the phase with the overheads as once the samples have been addded I find that the snare can sound better having its polarity reversed in relationship to the overheads., even if only the real snares phase was pretty good originally with the overheads. Continue the same process with the rooms as well untill you have maximum impact.

Dont be scared that it takes an insanely long time sometimes to get it right.
Chymer

[Kenny Gioia]

I'm doing 3 Snares and 3 Kicks. More control than EQ or Compression.

[Ermz]

Layering is great. Can get some unique sounds that suit on a project per project basis. Much better way of 'shaping' than simply using EQ IMO. Though I must admit for the sake of time I tend to just layer two samples max, along with the natural snare. I don't really want to be checking how well each layer of snares is triggering for hours.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I'm doing 3 Snares and 3 Kicks. More control than EQ or Compression.

Sometimes I find phase issues with stacking, just some partials or frequencies being masked.... flipping changes things, not always for the better, phase "rotators" like with the IBP provides other combos, but other problems as well.... how you guys all dealing with this? I never need to replace kicks for rock, but when stacking kick samples in dance music, the phase issues are enormous! ... no?....

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I'm doing 3 Snares and 3 Kicks. More control than EQ or Compression.

Regardless of song/sound??

[hakim]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I never need to replace kicks for rock, but when stacking kick samples in dance music, the phase issues are enormous!

I deal with this issue also... for example on this layered snare and kick but I treated the phase by using a slight track delay and that seemed to resolve the problem.

SoundClick artist: Kalandar Music - page with MP3 music downloads

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Sometimes I find phase issues with stacking, just some partials or frequencies being masked.... flipping changes things, not always for the better, phase "rotators" like with the IBP provides other combos, but other problems as well.... how you guys all dealing with this? I never need to replace kicks for rock, but when stacking kick samples in dance music, the phase issues are enormous! ... no?....

I usually just move them manually so the waves line up. Never had a big problem with it.

Is the phase inconsistent for you on different hits?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Jamzone

Regardless of song/sound??

Of course not. But I usually end up there.

Although most mixers consider themselves versatile, I tend to get a lot of my work in the same style. Pop Rock/Band Rock so a lot of my tricks work for all of it.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I usually just move them manually so the waves line up. Never had a big problem with it.

Is the phase inconsistent for you on different hits?

No, it's more about when adjusting an IBP (IMO better then time domain adjustment) on one kick sample with respect to another (i only do this in dance music) there is never a single "best" option. Phase issues as you know are compounded by EQ and when you create little phase holes in the bottom 2 octaves (due to the differing formants in the samples) it is often too time consuming to keep changing phase and re-eqing until you think you have the sound you want. When you do finally get a blend you like, I suggest sample it!