Just been to a classical baroque concert

[GrantsV]

We were sat just one row back from stage in a philharmonic hall. What an experience!

1) Despite being so close, the overall volume was very low. You could hear people cough. After life experiencing the normal high decibel rate of pubs/clubs/gigs it came as a big surprise.

2) Next thing that struck me was the extreme high notes had no hint of harshness, they were silky smooth but with absolute clarity. In comparison, the high end on my various decent monitoring systems over the years had artifically hyped highs as standard. The real sound was totally clear, but with a super smooth top end. You could not reproduce this by simply rolling off the highs on your monitoring because the sound would become dull as a result. The key difference I would imagine being harmonic richness as opposed to just boosting high khz. I can imagine a tube hifi amplifier could be really useful in giving clarity and presence to a recording, without adding unnatural highs.

3) Although the sound was drenched in the halls reverb, it was difficult to pick out the reverb even when the playing stopped. The sound of the instrument and reverb were as one, creating what can best be described as a sustain effect.

4) Stereo imaging. While you could pinpoint the direction, the sound of an individual instrument still filled the sound spectrum. It was never as drastic as panning a speaker all the way 100%, even when a musician was at a full 90 degree angle to me.

All the best,
GrantsV

[pootkao]

One of the best things a recording engineer can do is attend the symphony regularly. Its good for the ears and good for the soul.

[theblue1]

Hearing live, unamplified orchestral music in performance can be a real eye opener.

Er... ear opener.


I've had a subscription to my local symphony (which is pretty good for a 'minor market' orchestra, I think, but, hey, they're homies) for most of the last 20 years and it's been fairly revelatory.

Mostly, I really enjoy the music. But even when there's some overworn chestnut that I think is going to drive me nuts, I try to concentrate on the sound of the orchestra. There's always plenty to listen to, even if a particular composition doesn't do much for you. The way I figure it, you only get so many chances to see 80 or 100 very accomplished musicians all playing together with no amplification, so even if you're seeing some overexposed Tchaikovsky schmaltz, you better make the most of it. And when push comes to shove, I always find something to enjoy... (even if it's that new second section cellist... she's very cute.)

[Marlowe]

Agreed, attending a classical concert is a lesson in acoustics.

[desotoslo]

funny... classical stuff is how I grew up (playing in orchestras my whole life as a bassist)


I rarely go to rock shows, so when I do, *that* is an eye opener for me! I get excited about the sheer ridiculousness of the volume levels and how people go gaga over it. Fun.

[GrantsV]

So true, even pieces I hadn't heard before were so interesting just from the standpoint of examining the sound itself.

The sound of amplification at a concert is ridiculous, like artificial flavourings in the bass and treble!

I couldnt resist dropping the treble on my monitoring today and I was right, you can get rid of that extreme artificial high end, but then you lose the harmonic clarity.

[jaglesis]

wow, gotta go and check it out for myself

[theblue1]

String quartets -- when they're unamplified, of course -- are also a study in sonic complexity. The violin family can produce amazing ranges of overtones. In a quartet, you can really hear that stuff. (Problem with seeing someone like Kronos Quartet is that they may be amplified in a big venue. Of course, that makes their version of "Purple Haze" a little more impactful. :D )

And, of course, chamber orchestras offer a good in-between.

But it's not only violins that produce amazing overtones. I do not believe I have ever heard a recording that has fully captured the amazing sound of a horn section playing a complex harmony... in fact, it was that sound that started me thinking about all this back when I was in recording school at a local community college. We'd often help out or just hang at our school concert hall during set up and sound checks, even those of us not taking sound reinforcement classes and so we'd hear the sound of the horn sections with and without miking and amplification... And on those occasions when I recorded horn sections, I was always a little disappointed by how much was lost. But when I'd check my recordings at home, I never heard precisely what you hear in person, listening to a section playing some tart harmony, unamplified.

Orchestral music isn't everyone's cup of tea, of course. And the economics and audience situation is such that many orchestras cannot be as adventurous as they might like (so you get more chestnuts, because that's what a lot of folks like -- my local symphony orchestra has learned to tread lightly in the twentieth century for that reason but they do sneak in newer work) but there's always something to watch or listen for.


[Personal gripe: modern works that require amplification for the soloist in concertos or other works built around one or two soloists)... it's seemed to me for a long time that if a concerto is written properly, and the concert hall is designed properly, that the soloist shouldn't need to be amplified, for the most part. The exception is often spanish/classical guitars, which are often amplified these days. And -- of course -- if you go to a big outdoor venue like the Hollywood Bowl, expect to hear amplification. But, you know, listening to a great orchestra under the stars is its own compensation. ]

[fifthcircle]

Welcome to my life. Where the room is as much of a part of the performance as the musicians, where reverb makes a space, isn't just an effect, where performances are recorded, not manufactured...

The first post is exactly why I choose to work with acoustic music. Sure, I go see bands play and I even will record them on occasion. The real joy, however, with my work is with the great classical gigs.

Did the OP hear a baroque orchestra or a modern one? If it was an original instrument one, the string instruments very likely have gut strings which give a much more mellow sound. Also, the bows and playing technique are different that help with this distinctive sound.

As for amplification- it isn't always a bad thing. Kronos was brought up as an example. Be aware that many of their pieces are written to be amplified, some with playback and others with effects processing. They take full advantage of the digital technologies available to them. They wouldn't play a Beethoven quartet amplified, but then again, they don't play Beethoven. Leave that to Tokyo, Tackas, Emmerson, and the other great quartets. (probably butchered the spellings- sorry!)

Oh, and if you ever get the chance to be in the middle of a big orchestra.... It is a heck of a sound. 20+ years of orchestral playing here and it is a heck of a thrill every time. Hearing 80 musicians playing as one is a feeling that you'll never get elsewhere. Hearing 500 play as one brings it to another level (did that once- words don't even begin to describe it).

Lastly- (as I climb on my soapbox- sorry) Go out and hear these groups play. With the economy in the dump, many of them are having major financial troubles. If you don't take advantage of it now, there will likely be less to hear.

--Ben

[GrantsV]

Hi there,

It was a traditional baroque orchestra with gut strings. The set list was Adagio For Strings, Air G, Handal voice parts and some trumpted movements. Finale was Four Seasons, which quite frankly blew the other compositions away. You could practically see the wind, snow, birds, thunder etc. being conjured out of thin air by the instruments. The first movement of Spring can be quite irritating to hear on CD due to its chirpy manner and high register playing, but to hear it live it was complete different experience. Smooth, a great depth, and a wonder of stereo as the various players bounced passages off each other across the stage.

I've heard many baroque cd recordings and the violins always sound scratchy in the highs. In real life, the violin is super smooth even in high registers. Another thing I realised - with no amplification, the only way the lead violist can solo is if there is a space made for it in the composition!

[Cookie]

and you can take your lady there on a date, so it serves two purposed.

[resound]

Yes. Not only should you go listen to them play, but if you find the programming tired, let them know that! There are more good composers floating around this country than anyone knows what to do with. The more that subscribers and audience members ask for the "chestnuts" to not be so prevalent, the more likely you'll hear more modern classics or even, heaven forbid, current pieces written by living people with living concerns.

As for amplification, sometimes it's necessary. I have a concerto for viola and chamber ensemble. It's amazing how easily you can lose that instrument in *any* setting: it's the nature of the beast and the physics of the instrument. Sometimes, an instrument needs just the slightest bit of help; otherwise, the "accompaniment" has to be so soft and/or sparse as to really limit what the composer can do. As with anything else, if well done and appropriately balanced, it can be almost unnoticeable: instead of a detraction, a benefit that brings with it greater possibilities.

[Jimbo]

Just curious: was the music from both the classical and baroque periods?

That would be quite a dish!

[piano]

Classical music RULES.

I grew up a metal head (hug big fan) and studied classical piano and classical orchestration.

Truely, when you know how orchestration works, you realize just how much of an ABERRATION modern rock stuff is. LOL Ya, I love it.

In a modern rock mix there are instruments actually FIGHTING for sonic space and we have to go in and surgically eq them to have them fit well in a mix.

In classical, if it sounds like crap, instead of tweaking the hell out of it, you change the orchestration. What a concept!

[BruceB]

Many years ago I worked for a high end audio shop. There was a speaker manufacturer named Canton in europe and I was told that one of the requirements(not requests) was that all employees had to attend a chamber or orchestral performance weekly. I always thought that was a great idea. I also record a lot of chamber music and it is amazing what the live sound in a great hall can be like. My experience in these great halls and churches tells me there is no such thing as an adequate artificial reverb.

[author]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I always find something to enjoy... (even if it's that new second section cellist... she's very cute.)

Uh, female cellists... dangerous, dangerous.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by piano

Classical music RULES.

I grew up a metal head (hug big fan) and studied classical piano and classical orchestration.

Truely, when you know how orchestration works, you realize just how much of an ABERRATION modern rock stuff is. LOL Ya, I love it.

In a modern rock mix there are instruments actually FIGHTING for sonic space and we have to go in and surgically eq them to have them fit well in a mix.

In classical, if it sounds like crap, instead of tweaking the hell out of it, you change the orchestration. What a concept!

Well-observed.

One of the interesting things about trad jazz (New Orleans style, what was sometimes called Dixieland when I was a kid) is that the soloists in that originally all improv music evolved a somewhat elaborate etiquette for sharing the limelight -- as well as challenging someone for the solo space.

Of course, that was before amplification. Nowadays, whoever has the biggest, nastiest amplification, wins.

Still -- there are important lessons for rock/modern music players there.

When I first started recording, I'd been playing in various punk and no wave bands for a few years. And in the bands I was in, everyone pretty much played, all the time. Sometimes full out, all the time.

As I learned to mix, over and over, I was pleasantly surprised by how much drama you could put into a mix simply by cutting parts or developing a dynamic flow from section to section that emphasized one instrument or group while de-emphasizing another.

To this day, when I'm listening to a project in progress (I'm my only client these days) and thinking, what more can I add? -- I often, now, by habit, flip the question into, what can I take out of some other section to create more impact in this section. (Of course, you can get into habits, there, too, if you do the same thing in every song. But that's an ever-present danger, period.)

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by author

Uh, female cellists... dangerous, dangerous.

She's tall, willowy... kind of quiet looking. But with a shy smile she revealed at the end of the last concert, either her debut or the first time she's moved up to where I can see her from my center floor seat.*

The girl next door type I would let myself fall in love with and then always be crushed to find out that everyone was falling in love with...


* A great seat for immediacy, seeing soloists, and our rather animated conductor, Enrique Diemecke -- but, honest, the blend was better when I had a first row seat in the upper balcony. But the legroom did not exist. And, while it seemed like their might be more attractive players from way up there, the ogling was limited without opera glasses, which I've never owned. Orchestra blend? Upper balcony acoustics?Dang... I seem to be in danger of drifting back onto topic...

[tidepool]

Hearing a small baroque ensemble in a good hall really puts into perspective how far reproduced music still has to go. What gets me every time is the tremendous dynamic range skilled acoustic musicians can bring, far more shadings than a typical rock band's two settings of 'loud' and 'louder still'. It's not just players in the 'classical' world that have this skill, great bluegrass players 'swell' the volume very organically too.

Another suggestion for the those wishing to treat their ears would be to go hear a quality vocal ensemble. Living in the Bay Area for years, I heard Chanticleer many times, astounding how rich and well balanced their voices are. They tour the world, here's a link to their schedule:
Chanticleer: An Orchestra of Voices

[author]

Originally Posted by theblue1

She's tall, willowy... kind of quiet looking. But with a shy smile she revealed at the end of the last concert, either her debut or the first time she's moved up to where I can see her from my center floor seat.*

I feel so sorry for you! :(((

Originally Posted by theblue1

The girl next door type I would let myself fall in love with and then always be crushed to find out that everyone was falling in love with...

Everyone, yes -- and marketing bastards all over the music biz knows it. See, what they made me buy:

Amazon.com: The Harvard Dictionary of Music (Harvard University Press Reference Library): Don Michael Randel: Books

Can't put that book away. I try, and I try, but...