some advice, mixing in the box!!

[chumusic]

I need some advice on mixing in the box!

Well.. i have read several topics about mixing in the box, and so far they were saying, is to record your input signal not to loud...so that gives you more space to mix and create ofcourse...that's true.
Butha, let say i have a client who delivers all his audio tracks/wav/aif...etc
And all his files are recorded pretty loudly, is it the best thing to gain down all the files like for example in audiosuite...just transform his loudness files with gain down?
Would this be a solution?...and will it effect the signal wise sonicly?....i need to make his sound pump ofcourse.

[nlc201]

Originally Posted by chumusic

I need some advice on mixing in the box!

Well.. i have read several topics about mixing in the box, and so far they were saying, is to record your input signal not to loud...so that gives you more space to mix and create ofcourse...that's true.
Butha, let say i have a client who delivers all his audio tracks/wav/aif...etc
And all his files are recorded pretty loudly, is it the best thing to gain down all the files like for example in audiosuite...just transform his loudness files with gain down?
Would this be a solution?...and will it effect the signal wise sonicly?....i need to make his sound pump ofcourse.

You can apply gain in audiosuite or simply use the "trim" plugin as the first insert on the track. It's pretty cheap DSP wise and it's the best darn turner-downer I've ever used! Well..... not really, but it does the job fine..... In any case, I almost always have the trim plugin before a hardware insert as it allows me to use the D/A converters at nominal levels as well as hit my analog gear at good levels.

[jasonare]

I was taught to record/track anything from hardware synths or guitars at a nice level. Usually allowing for about 3-5db of headroom which shows up on your meters as just appearing at the orange level. (green/yellow/orange/red)

By recording at this level you reduce your signal to noise ratio. Then during your final mix you will probably drop the volume down as it will be too loud depending on the sound.

If you do a basic mix on your channels with individual EQ/Compression, then you can group instruments together and route them to bus' for further minor EQ or Compresion before sending to your final stereo output.

I was also taught that small amounts of EQ and Compression is better than too much as by the time it's sent to be mastered, Compression is multiclative.

[the1Hub]

when iam mixing something with loud enitial levels, i find myself pulling down all the faders except the master down about 5-10 db before i even start mixing. never tried the trim plugin idea it sounds enteresting. but why not just calibrate your interfaces?

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by nlc201

You can apply gain in audiosuite or simply use the "trim" plugin as the first insert on the track.

What's the use of this? If the tracks are clipped to begin with then this won't help at all. You'll end up with a softer version of a clipped track. You might as well just bring down the fader.

It's exactly the same with the opposite 'technique', normalizing 'too soft' a signal.

Trim/gain plug-ins are useful when:

a) you have an automated track that is generally too soft or loud but dynamically good. Instead of rewriting automating you just insert the trim plug-in and make the change.

b) Say you comp a vocal and a certain phrase/word is way louder/softer. Instead of performing automation 'acrobatics' you might just apply the AudioSuite plug-in and adjust the offending snippet.

I would rather concentrate on making the tracks work with each other. Changes are, with tracks that are 'fully loaded' you'll probably get mid/mud buildup, so you might apply lots of EQ cut to trim the fat.

And don't worry about levels that are in the red but SOUND o.k.
As long as you don't get digital clipping you're o.k.


Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[dave-G]

For some great insight into gain staging, intersample-peaking, signal versus sample metering, and some not-immediately-apparent opportunities for clipping when mixing in a DAW, have a look at Paul Frindle's (of Sony-Oxford) posts in the later pages of the the "DAW and Desks" thread on George Massenburg's R-E-P forum.

Start here: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...89/0#msg_65289
and then scroll through the remaining pages... He's really posted a lot of great information

thumbsup

-dave

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

What's the use of this? If the tracks are clipped to begin with then this won't help at all. You'll end up with a softer version of a clipped track. You might as well just bring down the fader.

Hey Andy. Nobody said that the signal was clipped!?...just Hot.

Originally Posted by doorknocker

And don't worry about levels that are in the red but SOUND o.k.
As long as you don't get digital clipping you're o.k.

IMHO. All plugin extra processing is going to be signal degradation.
Any way, the optimum input level at the time of tracking can be little lower, If you have a 24bit recording...your noise floor is going to be way lower most of the time. In a 16 bit situation I'd think it twice!?
I'm no expert in the matter and would also very much appreciate the input from the Knowledgeable fellow Slutz

Originally Posted by Dave-G

Start here: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/in...289/0#msg_65289
and then scroll through the remaining pages... He's really posted a lot of great information

...................

[TML]

This thread is really confusing me.......everyone in the Daw or plug business has a point...same for the mixers.......are so many people summing due to their inabilty to grasp the technology...ie....proper gain staging in the DAW environment...or is it better and faster to mix outside???

[nlc201]

I definitely agree with all the posts about recording a little more conservative level-wise. Unfortunately. as chumusic said, sometimes you get files from outside projects in for mixing and they're screaming hot, or clipping. As you can't really lecture the client about proper tracking levels and make them track it again properly, you only have one option. Turn it down. Does it suck to instigate an extra plugin just to get the track down to reasonable levels? Absolutley. But, what else are you gonna do? The fader is a great option, but not when there's prefader processing going on. You're gonna have to buy yourself some headroom before the fader.

With regards to hot levels being OK, it seems like a can of worms. The problems with hot tracks is that you're gonna need some headroom if you plan on using any EQ at all. Even the phase shift from subtractive EQ can sometimes do funny things that causes the signal to clip (when it's really hot). Also, the meters and clip indicators are not always the most accurate. I've looked at hot tracks that didn't set off the peak light which are actually clipping on some transients. Sometimes it's too short to register, but can be audible nonetheless.

Another issue with hot tracks is the fader position. Mixing with all your faders at -10 or below just plain sucks. The resolution just isn't as good. I'm talking about a logarithmic tapered physical fader, not internal resolution by the way. Having the faders close to unity makes it easier to mix. A great thing about Pro Tools is that the mix buss is at such a high resolution. For those who don't know, the audio is summed together with an extra 32 (I think) bits above the standard 24-bits that the final audio lives in. Any number greater than 24-bits still has the ability to be expressed now with the extra resolution. Turning the master fader down lowers this >0 dBfs number back into the realm of a standard 24-bit audio word. In a nutshell, this allows for clipping at the fader stage to be removed later, at the master fader. In other words, you can actually mix hot tracks with the faders at unity and simply turn down the master fader (usually a good 10 dB for a bunch of really hot tracks). This does nothing to alleviate prefader clipping. If it's clipped when it's recorded, then it's clipped. If it's just hot, there's a good chance it will be clipped with any prefader processing (if not trimmed down first). The good news is, it won't clip at the fader if the master fader is staged properly. Even if you sum with busses before you're master fader, there are high resolution master faders available for each one of those busses as well. In addition to all this, mono panned tracks are subject to the pan-law which is about 2.5-3 dB attnuation if I'm not mistaken.

All this goes out the window when you add analog summing to the mix. If you have a very hot track and are routing it directly out of a D/A channel to a summing box/ console, you've got to be really careful. Take a really hot snare track for example. At the prefader stage, it really has no headroom for any plugin processing without clipping. At the fader stage, the output is limited to 24-bits with no safety 24-bit net above it to catch the clips. So, for any fader position greater than 0 dB (direct mono out, no pan-law applies), you have the potential for clipping. If its been recorded hot, odds are it clipped on recording as well. The snare track hasn't even got to summing and its had the potential to be clipped 3 times so far. Also, the hotter analog output signal from the D/A converter is gonna start eating into your headroom on your summing buss as well. Bottom line, keep your levels down a bit to give yourself some headroom! If you're given hot tracks to work with, get 'em down to a reasonable level for processing/mixing....

[eligit]

Originally Posted by nlc201

I definitely agree with all the posts about recording a little more conservative level-wise. Unfortunately. as chumusic said, sometimes you get files from outside projects in for mixing and they're screaming hot, or clipping. As you can't really lecture the client about proper tracking levels and make them track it again properly, you only have one option. Turn it down. Does it suck to instigate an extra plugin just to get the track down to reasonable levels? Absolutley. But, what else are you gonna do? The fader is a great option, but not when there's prefader processing going on. You're gonna have to buy yourself some headroom before the fader.

With regards to hot levels being OK, it seems like a can of worms. The problems with hot tracks is that you're gonna need some headroom if you plan on using any EQ at all. Even the phase shift from subtractive EQ can sometimes do funny things that causes the signal to clip (when it's really hot). Also, the meters and clip indicators are not always the most accurate. I've looked at hot tracks that didn't set off the peak light which are actually clipping on some transients. Sometimes it's too short to register, but can be audible nonetheless.

Another issue with hot tracks is the fader position. Mixing with all your faders at -10 or below just plain sucks. The resolution just isn't as good. I'm talking about a logarithmic tapered physical fader, not internal resolution by the way. Having the faders close to unity makes it easier to mix. A great thing about Pro Tools is that the mix buss is at such a high resolution. For those who don't know, the audio is summed together with an extra 32 (I think) bits above the standard 24-bits that the final audio lives in. Any number greater than 24-bits still has the ability to be expressed now with the extra resolution. Turning the master fader down lowers this >0 dBfs number back into the realm of a standard 24-bit audio word. In a nutshell, this allows for clipping at the fader stage to be removed later, at the master fader. In other words, you can actually mix hot tracks with the faders at unity and simply turn down the master fader (usually a good 10 dB for a bunch of really hot tracks). This does nothing to alleviate prefader clipping. If it's clipped when it's recorded, then it's clipped. If it's just hot, there's a good chance it will be clipped with any frefader processing (if not trimmed down first). The good news is, it won't clip at the fader if the master fader is staged properly. Even if you sum with busses before you're master fader, there are high resolution master faders available for each one of those busses as well. In addition to all this, mono panned tracks are subject to the pan-law which is about 2.5-3 dB attnuation if I'm not mistaken.

All this goes out the window when you add analog summing to the mix. If you have a very hot track and are routing it directly out of a D/A channel to a summing box/ console, you've got to be really careful. Take a really hot snare track for example. At the prefader stage, it really has no headroom for any plugin processing without clipping. At the fader stage, the output is limited to 24-bits with no safety 24-bit net above it to catch the clips. So, for any fader position greater than 0 dB (direct mono out, no pan-law applies), you have the potential for clipping. If its been recorded hot, odds are it clipped on recording as well. The snare track hasn't even got to summing and its had the potential to be clipped 3 times so far. Also, the hotter analog output signal from the D/A converter is gonna start eating into your headroom on your summing buss as well. Bottom line, keep your levels down a bit to give yourself some headroom! If you're given hot tracks to work with, get 'em down to a reasonable level for processing/mixing....

does anyone know if logic is the same way? NONE of my single tracks are clipped but i absolutely clip the internal 2 bus if i leave the faders in logic near unity with anything beyond 4 tracks.

so, to various degrees i have to pull channel faders back.

should i just use the channel faders for balance but leave them near unity and then pull back the fader on the master bus to avoid clipping?

[captain54]

Originally Posted by eligit

does anyone know if logic is the same way? NONE of my single tracks are clipped but i absolutely clip the internal 2 bus if i leave the faders in logic near unity with anything beyond 4 tracks.

so, to various degrees i have to pull channel faders back.

should i just use the channel faders for balance but leave them near unity and then pull back the fader on the master bus to avoid clipping?

I would have the same question....it seems like I've struggled with this for a while...

I think it's just the nature of the DAW beast.....however, the best results I've gotten is when the channel faders get pulled back to allow the master bus to breath, regardless of whether the single tracks are clipped or not...

other than that, I've been able to do some soft limiting on individual tracks, get the faders back up again, and the result seems to be that the master bus doesn't choke as quickly.....

[alphajerk]

from what i understand, native is 32bits... floating.. you have 8 more bits above unity, which gives you 6.02db gain on the fader above unity.

i have been thinking lately how much error is derived from those floating 8 bits and how it interacts with the individual faders to the master... and what is happening.


biggest problem when people track to digital is recording too hot. plain and simple. its a habit from analog to exceed the noise floor... and to some extent from 16bit days. just isnt necessary now and more detrimental than helpful.

i get a lot of tracks printed way too hot. some just outright clipping all the time. i just make it sound the best i can and not worry about it... and mention to the band the tracks were recorded too hot for digital and to make note of it next time.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

biggest problem when people track to digital is recording too hot. plain and simple. its a habit from analog to exceed the noise floor... and to some extent from 16bit days. just isnt necessary now and more detrimental than helpful.

I agree and record very conservative levels, these days;

OTOH, have you ever noticed that MW absolutely POUNDS his converters? Seems to work for him...

[eligit]

so is the consensus that when tracking aim so that your peaks are from -3 to -5? (still might have to pull some faders even then).

or quieter?

again i really am careful to never clip but 8-10 times a distorted guitar or something will have an occasional peak at -1 or -2. if it clips i just track it again...

advice?

ps i will NOT be mixing out of the box anytime soon.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by RobertPhilbeck

No I don't think so. I may need someone to jump in and keep me honest here, but anything above -6 could result in a signal that goes shitty regardless of whether you get the clip light or not. If you get in the -6 to 0 range you could correct the problem by pulling the fader down, or by DAC, but anything that goes red is unsalvagable.

Apparantly the foot room in 24 bit is incredible, so even signals peaking at -48 and lower can be pulled up to adequete level without a lot of noise. So, it is best to err on the side of low input. Keep it in the green.

Again, someone keep me honest here.

Robert

hmm. that would be a whole other way of tracking. anyone else want to throw in? individual tracks should never peak above -6 at 24bit?

[alphajerk]

i dont think it can be "corrected".... it will result in distortion in some form or another no matter where you send a clipped signal.

[Bob Olhsson]

There are plug-ins that clip if they are handed a floating point signal that's higher than digital zero.

It's a really good idea to check out a digital signal path with tones exactly like you would an analog path.