Ribbon for heavies.

[James Lugo]

Starting a few new records and gonna be tracking a ton of guitars. Been using 57's and 421's exclusively and getting good results. I've owned a couple of 121's and never really got into them personally but I know some friends are using AEA and Coles.

What's your favorite for heavy rhythms (Marshall, Orange, Diezel)???

Looking for something durable, no whimpy mics that I'll blow. I get pretty loud! Looking for fat 3Dness.

[3db@1K]

122

[Amadeuz]

I tried Crowley and Tripp's "Soundstage Image" mic on a nice rig of Bad Cats guitar amp.
IT WAS INCREDIBLE!!!
It was the first mic, that in my experience, represented a precise image of what I was listening as standing in front of the amp. Very precise and detailed with all the body of a ribbon design.

At mixing, we ended up muting the 57 and 414 tracks and settled with the C&T only! thumbsup

~A

[Brad McGowan]

I kind of prefer the Audix I5 on heavy guitars myself. That said...the R121 is pretty darn good about 80% of the time.

I know the question was about mics, but I highly recommend Evidence Audio Lyric cable if you want 3D fatness...for both connecting from guitar to amp, and then for your microphone. It's amazing what you can get out of a guitar/amp if it's not being held back.

Guitar Cables, Instrument Cables and Speaker Cables from Evidence Audio

Brad

[allencollins]

beyer m160 for ribbom
m201 for dynamic

[Deuce 225]

You may want to check out an RCA BK5, they can take high SPL's, combined with a 57, pretty killer. Just another option.... Your 421/57 is a hard combo to beat. We've been using a Royer 121 with a script-logo Senn 421 with great results, more for Ramonesy/Green Day kinda rhythm though, meaning, pretty cranked Boogies or Fenders but not Marshalls, Oranges etc.. Hope this helps.

[numrologst]

m160 is the only ribbon I've found to hold up to higher SPL's. There is a new mike that mercenary has that might be worth looking in to... It's supposedly a ribbon that can handle some heavy spl.

[big country]

If you want you can try some of the mics Im working on

I can deffinitly get you a different sound

[picksail]

James, those guitars that I track for that record were all cut with a single 57 into the Chandler TG2.

The differences were in how the guitar tracks were arranged.

Same Orange head and cab as you have.

The "Attenuator" on that particular amp is a key component.

[thenoiseflower]

M160 thumbsup

121 is OK, I like it, but, to my ear kinda robs the PHAT on some - not all - tones. M160 generally delivers on most amps, even big bass amps...

...and its amazing on hi hats

totally worth the price of admission.

I love my 4038 too, but not for heavy guitars.

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by thenoiseflower

M160 thumbsup

121 is OK, I like it, but, to my ear kinda robs the PHAT on some - not all - tones. M160 generally delivers on most amps, even big bass amps...

...and its amazing on hi hats

totally worth the price of admission.

I love my 4038 too, but not for heavy guitars.

How would you describe its tone?

[sonicdefault]

James,

Didn't you say awhile back you really liked the m88? Just reminding you in case you have been swimming in a sea of mics and forgot I've been using them allot lately with success. There seems to be a range of close proximity when all the sudden they come alive, but if they're back too far it is unapparent. I also have been using my trusty 122. I had a 122v for awhile, it's definitely worth considering and sounds very good. I love the sound of Coles too, by the way.

But I've been considering the Crowley and Tripp ribbons. Have you heard the Mercenary demo? I love the way it sounds.


-SD

[Mike Brown]

I am meh on the royers.....

I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the ribbon that the 122 is based off of though... the Bang Olufsen BM3 killer KILLER guitar mic.

I also dig the coles 4038 set back a bit....


rock on James.

[thenoiseflower]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

How would you describe its tone?

smooth , as cliche as that is...
heavy guitars (read: heavy players) the amp tone has fine highs in the room, but too much on tape. this mic doesn't do that and it captures the "woof" that makes the amp feel like it does in front of you...I like hyper-cardioids on amps, just seems to take the speakers at their word.

I guess I'll try harder
Its got SOME bite in the mids, slightly pushed back lows (still sounds good, thick & balanced, not thin at all) and the high end is not "airy", but clear and pleasant. it takes EQ really well, which is one of the reasons I love it on hi-hats so much.

my "go to" chain for hats is M160 > 512 or TG2 > 560b > recorder.

Guitars, the pre varies allot, but I've been loving BAE 312's and Neve 1073's, for heavy guitars

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

How would you describe its tone?

Pardon me for answering the question intended for thenoiseflower

I have an m160 and he is right about it... it's a great mic. Don't let it's small size fool you. I've been swimmin' in a sea of mics myself and forgot to mention!

IMO, it's slightly brighter than a 121, or 122, and has a good vintage vibe. The self noise when compared to the powered 122 is just slightly higher, but if one plans on doing a slight HF boost to the 122, it is almost nominal to the 160 (flat). Probably the greatest consideration when thinking about applying the 160 is that it's a hypercardioid. This yields a less ambient result than the Royers, and it's not as bass heavy. Of course this may or may not be the best thing for real heavy guitars if you want super lo end, but if you're stacking them, it could be just the ticket.


-SD

[NathanEldred]

Most metal guys like 121's on amps. 122's are overkill, because they'll need to be padded on the output of the mic, when using them on amps. AEA R84 rocks, but is too mellow (again going on the findings of my own taste and most of my customers), it's better in general for basic rock, alternative, blues. AEA R92 is the best AEA ribbon for metal guitars, it's not as mellow or thick as the R84. I'd couple the 121 specifically with an RE20 (just my experience).

[thenoiseflower]

Once a producer I was working with saw what I was doing with the M160 on bass, guitar and hats in tracking, Loved it and proceded to tell me that the old M160's were Jimi Hendrix's favorite mic

anyone confirm this as common knowledge? I was (semi) surprised

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by thenoiseflower

...

I guess I'll try harder
Its got SOME bite in the mids, slightly pushed back lows (still sounds good, thick & balanced, not thin at all) and the high end is not "airy", but clear and pleasant. it takes EQ really well, which is one of the reasons I love it on hi-hats so much.

...

That's a good description! That's pretty much how I see/hear it!


-SD

[84K]

Originally Posted by thenoiseflower

Once a producer I was working with saw what I was doing with the M160 on bass, guitar and hats in tracking, Loved it and proceded to tell me that the old M160's were Jimi Hendrix's favorite mic

anyone confirm this as common knowledge? I was (semi) surprised

that is Edie Kramer's favorite guitar amp mic, and yes, he used them on Jimi's recordings. (see ebay M160 price spike for 2 weeks)

[swankdoc]

+1 RCA BK5-B
word has it they were made to handle the SPL of gunshots on movie sets.
They sound great on a number of sources. Great male tenor vox mic, great on strings, can be an excellent guitar cab mic. They seem to be textured and bright to my ears...which if interpreted correctly is the opposite of dull and muddy.

[Brad McGowan]

Although the M160 is great on electric guitars it's going to sound more scooped and brighter than the R121. I also found it more difficult to place. It's not like an R121 where you can just stick it dead center and have it sound great. I think it has a more focused sound than the R121, whereas the R121 sounds bigger and warmer.

Here's some stuff I recorded ages ago using M160's through Vintech 1272's on a Marshall JMP / 4x12 and a Marshall JCM200 / 4x12. In the mix I used the UAD Pultec EQ. Guitars were Les Paul and SG.

Funeral Diner the wicked - Download from http://www.selmatravels.de - Filestube.com

Brad

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by dylansmale

C&T mics are going to be the most durable.

More durable than a 57?! or an i5?

Come on....you've never used one have you?

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Although the M160 is great on electric guitars it's going to sound more scooped and brighter than the R121. I also found it more difficult to place.

That's not my experience at all. I tend to get lazy when using M160s on guitar cabs, it just sounds good. Sometimes I have to force myself to try to fine-tune the position even more. I find the SM 57 to be the polar opposite, it needs careful placement or it won't work at all in most cases.

[seaneldon]

If you don't like the R121...have a listen to the R122V. More of a 3D midrange presence and silk up top. AEA R92 is a good choice for close micing an amp. I typically use it on smaller combos but it can do bigger amps as well. I've gotten some really good stoner-rock gain tones from a 50W Plexi with that mic.

If we're talking about 100W heads, jammed-on-the-speaker micing, and retaining big bottom without the flub...Crowley & Tripp "el Diablo" can make other ribbons sound broken by comparison. It just stays clearer with that much level and moving air. On our V2/HD130's/Sovtek it KILLS on a regular basis.

RCA BK5B's have a lot of bite and snarl, will take a good amount of level, and don't cost an arm and a leg.

[Recycled_Brains]

M160.

They have balls for days, and none of the fizzy bullshit on top that you don't need. Midrange is articulate and cuts through nicely. I don't find them to sound scooped at all. Quite the opposite actually. Very full sounding. I find that I'm EQing things less, esp. down around the 180-300 Hz range, where I usually scoop out "the mud". With the 160, that "mud" is now useable, good stuff. They handle high SPL just fine. I just recorded some crushingly loud doom/metal stuff with mine, and it held up just fine under the pressure.

In my experience, they seem to work better when backed off the speaker a bit. I usually keep mine 8"-12" off the speaker, but then again, I've never really been a fan of the "smashed up against the grill cloth" sound.

They rule on so many other things too, which was a big influence on my purchase. I don't believe in buying mics for 1 specific application.

Other than that, I'd recommend getting the AMI/TAB-Funkenwerk T58 Transformer for one of your SM57's. It makes a noticeable difference. I had a difficult time getting guitar sounds that I like from a stock 57, but all the issues I had (honky midrange, high end fizz, loose/muddy low end) are usually not an issue any longer. The T58 smoothed out the high frequency harshness and midrange "honk", and really tightened up the low end. In combination with the 160, you could get some pretty rad sounds, I think.

[dubrichie]

Coles 4040.

modern design and materials.

takes high SPLs.

built like a tank.

fabulous extended top end, like a top-drawer condenser...

but has that ribbon sound / transient response that you're looking for, especially on guitar amps.

a very modern sounding ribbon. i've used it on hip hop vocals with great results and clients blown away.

[Recycled_Brains]

Originally Posted by thenoiseflower

I love it on hi-hats so much.

It's funny, because I was at my friends studio the other day, and he was borrowing my M160 for drum tracking. He had it on the HH, and when he soloed the track for me I couldn't believe how good the other drums sounded. It was like a well placed room mic. The bleed was fantastic.

HH sounded pretty good too.

[Jim Williams]

414B's 24" back.

Flat response, no zippy tops, full low end, takes the levels.

I hate proximity effect on close miced speakers. Everything I use is back far enough to avoid it and to allow the entire cone area of the speaker to blend into what we guitar players call "the sound". Otherwise, the close mic only picks up a partial of the speaker's output. "More tweeter or woofer" says the AE as he moves the 57 around...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[warhead]

When you say heavy rhythms, do you mean heavy palm mute METAL?

If you have not tried the E/V ND468 on the dynamic moving coil side, I would urge you to check it out. For heavy metal guitar stuff I typically do not reach for a ribbon mic as there just isn't room in the mix to fit it in...in the mix is what matters!

The 468 I just love on guitars, it has cut without being harsh, full mids with great detail to them, and the low end is VERY proximity dependent. In other words, playing around with moving it back and forth just a bit is like EQ'ing out the flub on the bottom...very coherent sound and focused (and the pattern is among the tightest I've ever heard if not the tightest).

I cannot stand the M160 on guitar cabs but that's just me I guess.

War

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Recycled_Brains

Other than that, I'd recommend getting the AMI/TAB-Funkenwerk T58 Transformer for one of your SM57's. It makes a noticeable difference. I had a difficult time getting guitar sounds that I like from a stock 57, but all the issues I had (honky midrange, high end fizz, loose/muddy low end) are usually not an issue any longer. The T58 smoothed out the high frequency harshness and midrange "honk", and really tightened up the low end.

Try Unidyne III 57's made in IL. They don't have the honk the 57's made in Juarez, Mexico have. They are now collectable.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades