Mixing: Do you sweep?

[Bierce85]

In Paul Stavrou's "Mixing with your mind" book he recommends that you never sweep through frequencies while EQing for a few reasons..

Some include that you won't effectively train your ears what frequencies sound like and will always need to sweep in order to find the frequency you're looking for, another is that you're messing with your ears by subjecting them to the sweeping, yet another is that you'll tend to always pick the same frequencies to boost or cut since hearing them loud makes you pick favorites.

Since reading that I've been trying to get away from doing it a lot, but I still think it's the best way to figure out exactly which two frequencies are masking each other when trying to get two sounds out of each other's way. I've completely stopped sweeping to find a frequency to boost and I think that's been a good change.

I'm really interested in what some of our GS "Pros" have to say so I separated the poll into a "pro" section and an "amateur" section. I define pro as someone who is making their living as a full time recording engineer/mixer/producer/whatever. Amateur is everyone else.

[Dean Roddey]

Sounds pretty silly to me. There's no prize for getting a sound without sweeping an EQ, only a prize for creating something really good. If that requires that you sweep an EQ around, who cares?

[Bierce85]

Well, he suggests instead of sweeping, to instead every time you're looking for the right frequency, make an educated guess of what you think it will be and boost/cut that frequency. If it's not happening, bring the gain back to zero and make another educated guess.

In the short term, this seems tedious and time consuming, but I can see how in the long run it could really help train your ears and make you a better mixer.

I'm not at the point yet where I can definitively say, "there's too much 2K in the guitars, it's messing with the vocal" for instance. I'd love to have that kind of confidence. I think any mixer can benefit from really knowing what frequencies sound like and I don't think you really get that from sweeping.

[soundawg]

I sweep when I'm wrong.

In other words, every time I go to touch an eq, I already have a good idea what I'm going to do, and a good reason for doing it.

So when I hear something I would like to boost/cut I simply go to the frequency range of the eq I want to boost/cut and change it... but I'm human, so I don't always hit it perfect, and sometimes I might even be surprised to find myself waaayyyy off... so I am reduced to sweeping.


Now, the idea of throwing an eq on something and then trying to find a reason to use it by sweeping the entire frequency range in some kind of mad misplaced hope that Nirvana will be randomly discovered, is ludicrous to me.

Would a great sculptor start hacking away all over the stone before considering his actions? Then start with a new rock if it didn't work out? I think no.

On my side of the fence we believe the answer lies in studying your rock first, then making an educated decision on what to do, based on what you are hoping your final product will be.

The same could be said for effects, compression, etc...

Presets in plugins I hate!!! I would prefer all plugs to open bypassed, with all settings to 'off'. It really sucks to have something open with some whatever default setting that throws you off what you WERE thinking.

All our decisions to change something within a mix should be based on something we already have figured out in our head... unless we are completely lost, and if thatz the case, aren't we truly just sending up flares in hope of being rescued?

tutt

I prefer to listen, think, come up with an idea, and then execute it.


Soundawg

[Mr.HOLMES]

Sometimes I hear that something is wrong but I can not tell the range where I could find it....so I have to sweep to find it.

[dannygold]

Am I allowed to sweep if I proceed every mix with like say six hours of dave moulton's golden ears?

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Am I allowed to sweep if I proceed every mix with like say six hours of dave moulton's golden ears?

C'mon man, what would dave moulton think?

[drBill]

Sweeping can sometimes lead you to where you weren't EXPECTING to go. That's the main problem I find with his method. Serendipity. I can find the freq or very close without sweeping. Sweeping sometimes yeilds surprises that I never would have INTENTIONALLY looked for. Sweep away! thumbsup

[Kenny Gioia]

It depends what he means by sweeping.

If you're going up and down, up and down five times you will definitely lose perspective.

But I'll boost where I think I need it and move it up or down a bit to find the spot I really want.

Why do I need to train my ear to know exactly what freq I want to boost or cut?

So I can pass an exam?

I'll always have the option of sweeping while mixing and that's the only time I need it.

I don't need to know the number. Just how it sounds.

[skatingbasser]

I sweep pretty often. Sounds weird calling myself a "Pro", but by your definition, I pay the bills solely with audio, so...

I don't have frequencies pinpointed down to specific hertz. I've got the neighborhoods. Usually within 1 or 2 faders on a graphic eq. I will hear around 2K on said guitars and then double check 1.25K-3K.

This is being considered an amateur move? I don't think doing this makes me any less effective. And it does not help me pay my bills any less.

[aussie_techie]

first of all i think you have to do some sweeps, particularly when using a narrow Q you have to find the exact frequency which you will never be able to my guessing a frequency. if you use an analogue piece of equipment the printed frequencies will never be exact so you simply have to.

i think what stav is trying to get at is that you shouldn't sweep large ranges all the time, or ever if you can help it. you can fatigue you ears extremely quickly if your doing it with high frequencies as well, so i always say turn down your monitors before you do it with high frequencies, if you have to do it at all that is.

this kind of sweeping is an easy trap to fall into with the GM iso peak.

one of the big problems is that people can pick the same frequencies all the time because its a frequency of the room they are in not that its just their favourite. which if it has been recorded in the same room may be right but if not then it never will be. its also why i reference on cans when i need to find resonances that have to pulled out. which isnt the way to eq everything but something it needs to be done.

not doing any sweeps would also lead you to mixing by sight rather than by ear which is always a bad thing, and if i remember correctly is one of stavs big points. (it has been a long time since i read the book)

[DesertDawg]

Originally Posted by soundawg

I sweep when I'm wrong.

ROFL! Perfect! That's the answer... really.

[Steffmo]

I sweep only when my wife insists.

Or if I have an important client.

[nickynicknick]

I guess the poll is OK...but it's ridiculous to suggest that sweeping around the area you think it is is a sign of being an amatuer....if you solo a piano say and apply a low pass filter to where you think it should go and then you deselect solo and here it in perspective are you an amateur because you sweep around to see exactly where you want it to sit...silly.

Nick

[Mike Brown]

drBill nailed it as he always does.

I usually end up with my ears telling me pretty close to exactly where I need to go, but sweep a little up and down to see if I can find a nice spot for it to sit.

I also find myself stumbling on frequencies that don't immediately cry out to me, but add a new dimension.

[wallace]

Sometimes I think it's better to sweep with all the instruments going as opposed to soloing and sweeping. Some frequencies might sound weird but won't be the ones that are cluttering up your mix.

[larry b]

It sounds like the general consensus here is that you take a stab at it, and sweep a bit if you need to.

No shame there. I'd rather find the frequencies im looking for quicky than make a heady guess and back off if im wrong so i can make another.

I'm not sure that would be the greatest way to train your ears either, although ive not studied the subject very much. It seems to me that if youre listening, and you hear an offending frequency, or you want to add something thats not there, who cares what the numbers say. Move the knob until you HEAR what you want to hear. Repetition will generate skill. Still sweeping some, but quickly and effectively. Other times nailing it.

Larry

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

In Paul Stavrou's "Mixing with your mind" book he recommends that you never sweep through frequencies while EQing for a few reasons.

[...]

I'm an ex-pro. I answered in the amateur section since that reflects my current business status. I said sometimes.

I seldom have any problems finding problem frequencies but every now and then I'm surprised, at least a little. Still, when I was a kid, I listened to test records for fun ("Now, on the left speaker you will hear a steady tone of 100 cycles per second...") So, it's semi-second nature.

That said, I always thought sweeping to find the 'annoying' frequency was a clever way to look for a cut point. Trust me, it's just a starting point for me.

[doorknocker]

I sweep but only with a broom.

[freestyle tromb]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Why do I need to train my ear to know exactly what freq I want to boost or cut?

So I can pass an exam?

I think the idea is more so that you can find the sound in your head easier. It's just like playing music- you can't play it if you can't hear it first.

But I also really like the answer about serendipity. That's also just like playing music- sometimes you'll stumble across something amazing that you never would have known existed.

[jbsg02]

I mop

[Rubito]

I usually sweep with a boost when I'm planning to cut and vice versa.

When I hear a frequency that needs to go, i find it by boosting it and sweeping until it sounds as absolutely horrible as I can make it, then changing it to a cut. Likewise when I think a track is missing energy in a certain area, i use a mid-band severe cut and sweep it until it REALLY sounds as empty as I can make it and then reverse that.

I can usually tell what the frequency is right away, but sometimes I learn a lot by exploring neighboring frequencies and even change my original intention based on that.

[princeplanet]

Stavrou is an ok engineer, certainly not outstanding, however, i do wish he'd keep his "insights" to himself.

Write your own book ..... just don't ask anyone else to read it, I reckon.

[FeatheredSerpent]

Some people sure do seem to get very defensive/offended very quickly.

At no point in the book did he ever refer to sweeping as being 'amateur', that's just something one of the posters created in his head because he felt threatened by the fact that an alternative might be beneficial.

It's just a way to train your ear. The reasons outlined in the book for why it's a good idea are pure common sense, it enables you to work quicker and smarter, it has nothing to do with what is 'amateur' and what is 'professional'.

Originally Posted by Michael Paul Stavrou

The human ear is great at comparing between toggled states (A:B). It is not so good at following slow changes because it quickly adapts and loses perspective. So rather than compare 50 wrong frequency choices by sweeping, try comparing just two good ones.
This special technique is guaranteed to strengthen your ear while maintaining perspective and sensitivity.

[JPeters86]

I rarely sweep, except when I'm correcting something. When soundshaping, most of the time I know what frequences to boost/cut. Plus, I mostly use 'vintage plugins' like the 1073 and Pultec, so there isn't really sweeping going on there.

[Chaellus]

after mixing alot of gotten accustomed to the frequency ranges of instruments like guitar bass acoustic guitar and etc... so ill eq in the ranges i think are necessary and i do sweep from time to time....especially thru esses parts from the sometimes imported tracked sessions that i was not involved in, dont be afraid to sweep

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Why do I need to train my ear to know exactly what freq I want to boost or cut?

So I can pass an exam?

I'll always have the option of sweeping while mixing and that's the only time I need it.

I don't need to know the number. Just how it sounds.

Yeah, I agree..but then there will be people that simply HAVE to know the frequency numbers..

I don't, so - upper mid, super top, low mid, sub bass - those sorts of descriptive ballpark range words do for me.

As I move towards doing an eq move I would just have one of the above descriptions in my head. Instinctively I might twist the knob to pretty much the exact spot first go but if you asked me the frequency, I would have to look down at the eq knob and try to make sense of the numbers around it, I would never look at the numbers normally, my senses are set to fingers and ears - not so much eyes...

But I don't wear my lack of numbers methodology like badge of honor.. Its a deficiency, something I don't bother with and I respect the engineers who know pretty much exactly the numbers they are going for.. Its just not my style

Being able to communicate frequency ranges WITHOUT using numbers should be part of every engineers skill set as not all producers or musicians 'know the numbers' IMHO

[The Reel Thing]

i like sweeping. it makes funny noises @ +12 dB and can make for good atmosphere on a signal during mixdown. it's just that you always need one hand free to do it.

as for finding frequencies: the bands you use are always the same, once you've found your style and signature. it's your ears and your taste and your style. they're like API 550s. you have a couple of frequency band choices and you use them, up or down.
no matter what console i work on, it's always the same frequencies i find myself working on. that's how i sound. that's what people book me for.
no need for sweeping anymore, have swept enough in my lifetime.

tom

analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

p.s. if you want to learn frequency bands, go work as a monitor engineer in a club for a couple of months. that's first hand invaluable experience, reading about it or listening to cds will never get you that far. 31 bands on your eq, monitor is screaming with feedback - which one is it? you better find out before the first shoe hits you...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jbsg02

I mop

I'm a dirty bastard - I don't bother with either

But seriously, saying "do" or "don't" do that is a bit silly. mix knowing frequency values, mix using feel, mix using a bus comp+eq, mix without...go crazy with rides, use multiple mixbuss comp a la MB, whatever.

Anyone who's been engineering for a while can ball park frequencies, either by number or by feel. Anyone who can notch out rings or rasps without sweeping is the exception rather than the rule.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I guess the poll is OK...but it's ridiculous to suggest that sweeping around the area you think it is is a sign of being an amatuer
Nick

I guess you missed the point. I clearly state I divided the poll into a "pro" and "amateur" to simply observe the habits of mixers in both categories. Never did I say that sweeping made you an amateur.