New monitors...some observations and a question.

[zakco]

Hello all,

After 5 years of working with Mackie HR824s I just purchased a pair of Dynaudio BM15a. I've been fortunate to have a couple days of downtime in the studio to really do some critical listening to both reference CDs and some of my mixes.

I really expected a huge difference in low end clarity and while there is some noticeable improvement in that area, I'm hearing the biggest difference in the 250-600 hz range. Especially on my own mixes that were done on the Mackies. I'm suddenly picking out strange nasal quailities in vocals, and tracking room resonances that I hadn't noticed before. As well, some reverbs are sounding boxy now where they weren't on the Mackies.

As a general rule I'm somewhat unhappy with the way my work sounds on these speakers, however a couple of songs sound stunning....better than before. Go figure!?!

All this is starting to make me quite insecure about several current/recent album projects that I'm now feeling the need to revisit.....

My question: What is causing the difference in midrange response? Are the mackies undefined in this area or are the Dyns a little heavy in this range? At this point I'm not really sure what to trust....I am of course going to make some test mix CDs and go see how it translates to other systems, but I am curious what conclusions others have drawn when comparing these speakers.

Thanks in advance,

-Zak

[aaronsternke]

I used to work a lot on those Mackies, and my opinion is that they were a little hyped in the highs AND the lows... and the mids weren't quite there. I could never get my low midrange right on those things... I share your experience. Got new monitors, midrange opened way up. I'd say you're hearing things better now. My 2 cents.

Aaron

[eligit]

agree.

went from mackie to dyn and heard the same thing.

in my case tho it was hr624 to Bm6p (obviously can't make the same bass as 15s but the mids are right there and image is nice and clear (unless you turn them up too loud).

[Glamdring]

Before getting my 15as I demoed a lot of monitors, including the Mackies, and could never understand how anyone could listen to them let alone monitor through them. The mid-range was really hyped and metallic. I have found mixes on my 15as have tranlsated really well, so I expect you'll find you are doing better now.

best,

E

[Martian]

Replacing my Event 20/20s with Dyn B15as was one of the best moves I ever made. Suddenly I didn't have to worry about compensating for all the events sonic flaws. Mixing is way less stressfull and i don't hav to do as much referencing to other material and on other systems.
I compared them to the new genelecs and found the dyns to be way flatter and true. The genelecs seemed kinda high-fi and I didn't think I could stand listening to them for extended periods of time. thumbsup

[Ethan Winer]

Zak,

> I really expected a huge difference in low end clarity <

Low end clarity is more a function of the room than anything else. All untreated rooms have severe ringing at low frequencies, and in most cases that dominates what you hear even more than which loudspeakers you have.

--Ethan

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Zak,

> I really expected a huge difference in low end clarity <

Low end clarity is more a function of the room than anything else. All untreated rooms have severe ringing at low frequencies, and in most cases that dominates what you hear even more than which loudspeakers you have.

--Ethan

man, that is the truth. even at lowish volumes when you hit those resonant frequencies in an untreated room everything starts to shake and you can't hear crap.

[Glamdring]

Sorry to briefly hijack ----

Ethan,

Does your distributor in the UK offer any educational pricing on your Realtraps range? I would love some proper acoustic treatment!

best,

E

[Glamdring]

also,

if you love your 15As, post your feedback here!

[Bang]

I don't understand how people mix on the 15As. Its so hard to hear the low mids on those things, accurately that is. They are a pleasure to listen to so it doesn't surprise me that people love them because they make things sound REALLY GOOD, and if you learn them I assume you can do some good mixes on them. But in the well treated rooms I've listened to them in, they didn't sound at all accurate.

I think one of the most undertalked, underated monitors in the business is the Truth Audio TA1As. With a properly placed sub in a good room, those things are unstoppable. They don't make things sound better or worse, they make it sound how it sounds. I just did a shootout between them and the PMC AML-1s and thought they were remarkabley close, with the PMCs having a bit more brightness that wasn't actually there.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

[zakco]

Well I spent all day sunday with the BM15a's revisiting an entire album project that I had just finished mixing days earlier. Not a complete remix but rather going over each tune and making any changes that the new monitors prompted me to make. 99% of the adjustments I made was in the 250-600 hz range. exactly where Steve suggests that the Dyns lack clarity. Interesting....if the BM1a's are lacking definition in the low mids then the Mackies must be freakin' horrific in that range.....because I had a much easier time navigating the mids on the Dynaudios. I also made several adjustments the kick and bass gtr level on various songs based on how I percieved the low end on the new speakers.

Ethan, for the record, my CR is not really untreated. I'm using 8 of your mini traps in the ceiling corners, 2-8ft membrane absorbers in the rear corners and 2-4'x8' polycyndrical diffusors combined with a checkerboard foam array on the rear wall. It's not entirely perfect, but far from untreated.....

Anyways, the final verdict is good. I checked the new mixes on several systems including a home theatre, a JVC boombox and a decent car system and I'm really pleased with the results. I managed to clean up a ton of crap in the low mids. The vocals are MUCH clearer,as are the drums. The kick and bass sits consistently better than it did on my Mackie mixes. I'm sold and so are the HR824s......

-Z-

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Bang

They are a pleasure to listen to so it doesn't surprise me that people love them because they make things sound REALLY GOOD.....

Wow.
I've had the opposite experience.
I've just spent countless hours listening to reference material on them and I'm shocked at just how AWFUL alot of major commercial releases sound on them. Thin, harsh and distorted. It seems that anything that was hammered a little too hard at the mastering stage REALLY suffers at the hands of the Dynaudios. Very unforgiving in my opinion.
However, dynamic, open sounding recordings sound simply amazing...as you would expect.

Originally Posted by Bang

... and if you learn them I assume you can do some good mixes on them....

Isn't this is true of just about any monitors. NS10s anyone....?

I do respect your opinion and experience though....it's amazing how different people's perception can be. Not right or wrong, just different.

-Z-

[Bang]

Glad you liked them. But my ears tell me the truth and those things have exciter like distortion on the top end and a less then truthful low mid. If you are used to them I'm sure you can make a great mix on them.. but then again if you are used to the boxy crapiness that is the NS 10, you can make a mix on them too. For the sake of this thread I'm going to borrow another pair of BM 15As and see if I get the same results as I did last time.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

[Ethan Winer]

eligit:

> even at lowish volumes when you hit those resonant frequencies in an untreated room everything starts to shake and you can't hear crap. <

And it's not just the volume of the resonances, but also the fact that with ringing comes an extended decay time. So the kick drum overhangs and muddies up notes from the bass, bass notes run into each other, and forth.

Glam:

> Does your distributor in the UK offer any educational pricing on your Realtraps range? <

I don't know about educational pricing, but I can tell you that the prices on their web site are wrong. They dropped the price on all our products by 1/3 a few months ago, but they still haven't fixed their stupid web site. So please call them and ask for a quote.

Zak:

> my CR is not really untreated. I'm using 8 of your mini traps in the ceiling corners <

Great! Though my comment was meant as general advice, not so much directed at you.

--Ethan

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Bang

Glad you liked them. But my ears tell me the truth and those things have exciter like distortion on the top end and a less then truthful low mid. If you are used to them I'm sure you can make a great mix on them.. but then again if you are used to the boxy crapiness that is the NS 10, you can make a mix on them too. For the sake of this thread I'm going to borrow another pair of BM 15As and see if I get the same results as I did last time.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

I think i'm in agreement to some degree about the top end. This is probably why the crushed, overly bright stuff just completely falls apart on these monitors. I'm going to experiment a bit with the HF rolloff to see if it eases up a bit on the crunchies....I'm still really impressed with the low mids though.

-Z-