How do you handle musicians that wanna control every part of the process?

[mbradzick]

I'm about to start recording a friend of mine whose music I like, and I wanna get his stuff out there, but he has a tendency to wanna control each part of the process and it messes with me mentally.

How would you handle someone who gets frustrated easily when things aren't sounding exactly how he wants it or something's not working right, and gets a little demanding during tracking?

Even though he's paying me I could not do the project but this will force me to work with other people like this in the future.

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

[ScumBum]

Welcome to the world of audio engineering !!!!! Get used to it ........

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I'm about to start recording a friend of mine whose music I like, and I wanna get his stuff out there, but he has a tendency to wanna control each part of the process and it messes with me mentally.

How would you handle someone who gets frustrated easily when things aren't sounding exactly how he wants it or something's not working right, and gets a little demanding during tracking?

Even though he's paying me I could not do the project but this will force me to work with other people like this in the future.

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

You have to learn how to be a diplomat, and allow him to think he's in control while you present ideas that take things in the direction you want to go.... Eventually, they will stop micro managing your duties and allow you much more control... while they focus on the things they do best. It's really all about trust, and trusting you to make the right decisions.

I've been through this type countless times....

But, then there's the guys who must control everything.... you just got to let them do their control trip and play it out how they want. At the end of the day you are working for them, and if they want to do something you have to do it.

[Nyquist]

Throw his favourite SM58 at his head. He'll get the idea.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by Nyquist

Throw his favourite SM58 at his head. He'll get the idea.

Actually that would be my 57 but I need it to work!!

[ScottAltiz]

don't be too apologetic, and do your best, and make sure they KNOW you're trying your best. offer suggestions, and be stern on things that would otherwise not make sense. it's about balance. i think most client relations start out like this until you prove yourself, so don't sweat it

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

You have to learn how to be a diplomat, and allow him to think he's in control while you present ideas that take things in the direction you want to go.... Eventually, they will stop micro managing your duties and allow you much more control... while they focus on the things they do best. It's really all about trust, and trusting you to make the right decisions.

I've been through this type countless times....

But, then there's the guys who must control everything.... you just got to let do there control trip and play it out how they want. At the end of the day you are working for them, and if they want to do something you have to do it.

I bet everyone who's recorded anyone has...I just need some more experience under my belt.

"I can't hear myself....um...ok.....yeah......noooo......what do you mean there's no direct monitoring on a Mac? I can't work like this..."

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I'm about to start recording a friend of mine whose music I like, and I wanna get his stuff out there, but he has a tendency to wanna control each part of the process and it messes with me mentally.

How would you handle someone who gets frustrated easily when things aren't sounding exactly how he wants it or something's not working right, and gets a little demanding during tracking?

Even though he's paying me I could not do the project but this will force me to work with other people like this in the future.

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

Let them control it for the most part. It's their money.
But in the rare case that something just isn't possible then tell him so.

Looking back at my early band days I regret letting the Engineers dictate. In retrospect out of the 10 or so Engineers I worked with in the late 70's or Early 80's only 2 or 3 really had a clue.

One of the things in the last 5 or so years Iv'e learned to do is listen to the client. We didn't all have similar tastes and/or musical vision. Even If I hate someones music it is thier vision right or wrong. You need to respect that and work with it. (not saying you don't ofcourse)

If Curt Kobain came into my studio in 1990 I would have told him he is unreproduceable since I hated
poor musicianship and garage rock back then more than I do now. But Look what he did? I admit these days I would now try to compliment his ideas as opposed to shunning them. Though it would kill me to do it.

Not saying this is your situation but determine if it's just you not seeing eye to eye or if he is in fact just a dickhead. Which in both cases tell him to screw. But make sure to keep the money he's already paid you. Then smear his name around town and earse his files from your DAW without archiving. THAT WILL TEACH HIM!!!........... Just kidding. Just work with him you may be surprised. If not, you still got paid

[FeatheredSerpent]

Tell him all he has to pay for is studio time and head down the pub

[u b k]

here's a curveball: pretend you're him, and ask "how do i handle an engineer who wants to control everything?"

because you wouldn't start a thread like this if you didn't have control issues of your own.

just like the rest of us. thumbsup


gregoire
del
ubk
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[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by u b k

here's a curveball: pretend you're him, and ask "how do i handle an engineer who wants to control everything?"

because you wouldn't start a thread like this if you didn't have control issues of your own.

just like the rest of us. thumbsup


gregoire
del
ubk
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[anguswoodhead]

I would take off my Producers hat and put on my Engineers hat and just do what he says.
If he is not sure about something then I would make a suggestion otherwise I would just play ball.
I like to work out right at the beginning of a project what my level of creative input is so I don't waste my time giving creative input if it is not wanted.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

I would take off my Producers hat and put on my Engineers hat and just do what he says.
If he is not sure about something then I would make a suggestion otherwise I would just play ball.
I like to work out right at the beginning of a project what my level of creative input is so I don't waste my time giving creative input if it is not wanted.

Excellent points! I think I'm so used to producing the project since I've done mostly my own stuff, that I have to get used to letting the client choose the direction of the project. Where it gets awkward is when you cut a friend a deal so you can have something for your reel at the same time letting them make the decisions.

[IzzyRock]

Play the rule of "if his idea REALLY sucks, tell him", if not, just do your job
Because, there is a difference btw "trying to do what you want", and "just taking care of any amateur, horribles ideas that he might have sometimes"

[headwerkn]

Make them listen to "St Anger" then make them watch "Some Kind of Monster"... should scare them off...

[dambro2]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

I would make sure this is what he really wants. Maybe he really just wants an engineer not a co-producer. Working that out early will save both of you many headaches.

You need to be ready for both to be in business.

[skiltrip]

Lots of good advice here. I'd also go with just letting him steer things, it's his music, his vision. If an idea totally sucks, speak up, if not, maybe you'll actually learn some new things by letting him take the lead on production. Just push the buttons and go with the flow.

I know as a songwriter, part of my songs is the vision I have in my head that brings it to completion. I wouldn't want some engineer telling me how it's gonna be, know what I mean?

[Mr.HOLMES]

I stop the whole process in tis moment where it is clear to me that the artist is not having trust in my work.

He must trust into your skills if not he could do it all his-self.
Can he do all this alone?

If there is no faith into what you do for him you will have hard times.
Go with him for a cup off coffee and ask him if he is going to trust you.
If yes, tell him that he has to stop the control freak inside his soul.

I exactly asked this question in the QA with Dave Pensado.

And he told us that he once said that one person has to leave the control room or he is going to quit the job.

Sometimes you have to threaten a bit the clients after this mostly everything is fine.

[TanTan]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I'm about to start recording a friend of mine whose music I like, and I wanna get his stuff out there, but he has a tendency to wanna control each part of the process and it messes with me mentally.

How would you handle someone who gets frustrated easily when things aren't sounding exactly how he wants it or something's not working right, and gets a little demanding during tracking?

Even though he's paying me I could not do the project but this will force me to work with other people like this in the future.

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

Just do as much work as you can without him being around.. these kind of clients are mostly bothered by what they know not by what they hear.. this is mostly coming from insecurity and lack of experience.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by skiltrip

Lots of good advice here. I'd also go with just letting him steer things, it's his music, his vision. If an idea totally sucks, speak up, if not, maybe you'll actually learn some new things by letting him take the lead on production. Just push the buttons and go with the flow.

I know as a songwriter, part of my songs is the vision I have in my head that brings it to completion. I wouldn't want some engineer telling me how it's gonna be, know what I mean?

I totally know what you mean. I'm just wondering if every time I go for a sound he's gonna second guess it, making the sessions unpleasant. Perhaps I should just ask him what sound he's going for and try to emulate it? What does everyone here do when trying to get sounds? Do you let the artist dictate or do you just go for it?

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I'm about to start recording a friend of mine whose music I like, and I wanna get his stuff out there, but he has a tendency to wanna control each part of the process and it messes with me mentally.

How would you handle someone who gets frustrated easily when things aren't sounding exactly how he wants it or something's not working right, and gets a little demanding during tracking?

Even though he's paying me I could not do the project but this will force me to work with other people like this in the future.

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

The Golden Rule of Recording: the man or woman with the gold makes the rules.

If you're on a job and you can't follow the boss's orders, you should bail in as professional a manner as you can. (ie, don't the project in a lurch.)

Of course, recording professionals are paid for their (supposed) expertise -- and it's probably worth pointing that out to a client/boss who wants to do something you figure is unproductive or problematic.

But at the end of the day, the person paying for the dance gets to lead.


Though I trained and worked as an engineer, I've also worked as a producer. On occasion, even as producer, my employers have made decisions that forced me to work with engineers I might not have hired myself. If that engineer doesn't -- or can't -- follow my instructions, he's sidelined, one way or the other. I have definitely taken over the controls when a supplied engineer was not up to snuff.

I'd rather do the work of two than fight with an engineer who doesn't know what he's doing or simply doesn't understand his place in the scheme of things.

[staudio]

I usually tell musician clients who don't engineer to talk to me like a musician and I will handle the technical stuff.

Engineer: "Hey, I'm thinking this guitar wants to be more aggressive, I want to add some balls, which animal's balls should I add?

Musician: "I want the guitar to have elephant balls."

Engineer: "Ok, when you think of balls do you think of distortion or big low notes?"

Musician: "Elephant balls with overdrive!"

Engineer: "Ok, give me a minute to give that guitar some overdriven elephant balls."

The recording process can be intimidating to musicians because they may be confronted by technology, tools, methods, and work that they don't fully understand. I try to make them more comfortable by not asking them to think like an engineer.

But sometimes we have to forsake efficiency for the client to be happy and let them dictate everything from a .5dB level change to the choice of this EQ or that EQ...

Do what the client says at all times, and if you disagree with a course of action, suggest alternatives but then do what he/she chooses.

[Jim Williams]

You need a better class of friends.

Send him down the road to the next studio. Otherwise you won't remain friends.
That could also be a good thing...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by staudio

I usually tell musician clients who don't engineer to talk to me like a musician and I will handle the technical stuff.

Engineer: "Hey, I'm thinking this guitar wants to be more aggressive, I want to add some balls, which animal's balls should I add?

Musician: "I want the guitar to have elephant balls."

Engineer: "Ok, when you think of balls do you think of distortion or big low notes?"

Musician: "Elephant balls with overdrive!"

Engineer: "Ok, give me a minute to give that guitar some overdriven elephant balls."

The recording process can be intimidating to musicians because they may be confronted by technology, tools, methods, and work that they don't fully understand. I try to make them more comfortable by not asking them to think like an engineer.

But sometimes we have to forsake efficiency for the client to be happy and let them dictate everything from a .5dB level change to the choice of this EQ or that EQ...

Do what the client says at all times, and if you disagree with a course of action, suggest alternatives but then do what he/she chooses.

Best in thread.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

My role here: engineer and co-producer.

I have always felt that there is really no such thing as a co-producer.

Or more precisely, there is no such thing as co-equal co-producers

Figure out who is in charge and proceed accordingly. If it is his money, then I am afraid you have your answer, any authority that you exercise from there on out has to be earned - as Tony said, through trust and diplomacy.

I have been a producer, producer-engineer, I have engineered under some good producers, and I have engineered for clueless nitwits who thought they were producers. That last used to bug me, I felt like I was too good to be 'taking orders' from this guy, but my superiority has yet to manifest itself in my bank balance to the point where I can afford to turn these jobs down. So I find a way to make it work.


My current philosophy is simple: engineering is a service occupation - which is why we charge by the hour.

If you have some other kind of money deal, a flat rate for example, then you may have more to say about how things get done. Not that it will come any easier, but you would have the angels on your side.

Besides a philosophy of resignation, I can also offer some tactical advice for when you are in the trenches. Passive resistance, carefully placed and used sparingly can help remind a difficult client that he needs your input. Use a little reverse psychology and make him ask for your opinion.

[Matt Grabe]

I always make sure to have lengthy conversations with the band before we begin tracking; even before we begin pre-production. I always tell them that if I suggest something that they are iffy about, that we can track it both ways. If they don't hear what I was hearing in my head and prefer their original way in the end, then we'll go with that! Although I like to commit to things, it's worth it to me to put in more time so the artist feels secure along the way as well. Then again, I do not charge by hour, so that may not work for you.

It is important that the artist fees like it is still his project (not yours) but that they also feel that you are invested in it as well. There are tricks/techniques to finding that balance.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by joeq

I have always felt that there is really no such thing as a co-producer.

Or more precisely, there is no such thing as co-equal co-producers

Figure out who is in charge and proceed accordingly. If it is his money, then I am afraid you have your answer, any authority that you exercise from there on out has to be earned - as Tony said, through trust and diplomacy.

I have been a producer, producer-engineer, I have engineered under some good producers, and I have engineered for clueless nitwits who thought they were producers. That last used to bug me, I felt like I was too good to be 'taking orders' from this guy, but my superiority has yet to manifest itself in my bank balance to the point where I can afford to turn these jobs down. So I find a way to make it work.


My current philosophy is simple: engineering is a service occupation - which is why we charge by the hour.

If you have some other kind of money deal, a flat rate for example, then you may have more to say about how things get done. Not that it will come any easier, but you would have the angels on your side.

Besides a philosophy of resignation, I can also offer some tactical advice for when you are in the trenches. Passive resistance, carefully placed and used sparingly can help remind a difficult client that he needs your input. Use a little reverse psychology and make him ask for your opinion.

Another round of good points. In this case I will be basically a subservient producer as the artist pretty much knows what he wants the general vibe to be. What my concerns are is that he tends to get frustrated easily when things aren't working 100% right away and different avenues have to be reached. I get frustrated when I feel like my generosity is being stepped on. How many of us who were trusted by people did everything we could to make sure the person we're working for got our best effort? How many of us who were micro-managed felt like doing the bare minimum in order to just get on with it?

Monetarily this is a flat fee deal, and I need the experience in both recording someone and dealing with a client.

[hduncan]

Why not talk to HIM about this issue? Sit down and ask him exactly how he wants to work and tell him your concerns and see what he thinks.

That way- if he says that he wants you to administer your engineering talent, you can remind him when he gets a little too controlling of his own words.

I'd say be straight up with him and ask exactly what he wants from you and tell him you want to know up front so that there is no head-butting from misunderstanding or roles.

[Ihsahn1981]

Im sorry but engineers are hired goons. The musician has his vision and I think its the engineers job to help the musician realize his vision in any way possible.
You can try and help him from making bad decisions, but at the end of the day HE is paying YOU.
Dont like the results? Take the money and be credited as Alan Smithee in the booklet.

Weird and absurd demands from musicians are part of the game. Showing up with a 300$ drumkit and wanting the Black Album drumsound....I bet it happens every day.

Its all part of the dance

[u b k]

Originally Posted by u b k

...you wouldn't start a thread like this if you didn't have control issues of your own.

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I think I'm so used to producing the project since I've done mostly my own stuff, that I have to get used to letting the client choose the direction of the project.

i know your instinct was to dismiss my colorful response below, but i stand by what i'm offering here.

as another twist, everyone is talking about the importance of earning the client's trust, and this is good advice; i would also add that it seems as though you have little trust in your client... in his ability to be patient, to be flexible, to be open, and to actually have ideas that are on par with your own.

in that light, you really would do well to examine the limiting beliefs and expectations you're bringing to the table unawares. other people can smell our truths before we even say hello. it's in our body language, our facial expressions, and most clearly it's in our tone of voice and degree (or lack) of enthusiasm.

so again, i invite you to turn the mirror on yourself, and ask how you can manage yourself and your own habits of controlling the process, including the way you've defined the tone of this session before it's even begun.


gregoire
del
ubk
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