...and Justice for All kick drum sound? any tips?

[cleantone]

I will be working with a band thats heavier that my normal projects. I do mostly remote recording. This is psuedo project studio in an old factory building. The drummer was unhappy with the drum sound they got from thier last session in a low end studio. I asked him what sound he was looking for and he said Sublime (I think thats what he said) and also mentioned "and Justice for all" I have to go did around to find that album in my collection. I figured some of you might have some good suggestions to achieve a simular sound. What do you think?

[BJohnston]

Cleantone,
Your gonna need a drum sampler and triggers for your drums. That's the only way that I would even attempt to get that sound. You might try micing the kit up also to blend in with the triggered samples also. Basically you want a clicky but deep sample with a lot of 400HZ to 500HZ cut out of it. That should give it that airy feel. That's my suggestion anyway. Good Luck.

B

[cgarges]

That sort of application is about the only thing I like the Shure Beta 52 for, but it WILL get you close. I also recommend a very loosely-tuned double-ply head with hard plastic beaters on the pedal. Taping a quarter to the spot where the beater hits the head will also give you a little more of that top-end "click" without having to resort to EQ right off the bat.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[joelgtrnut]

Most of the work I do is metal, so I do this stuff pretty much daily.

EVERYTHING is triggered. Like it or not, if you actually want to hear the drums through a sea of overly distorted guitars........ You can use natural drums, but it will sound like sh*t and if you want to compete with every other heavy disc on the market, everything is sampled and quantized to the grid (especially on double bass stuff). Just try to make the most natural sounding tiggers you can.

To make a really bad a$$ kick drum for metal, I recomend several mics on the kick. Sample it in the begining of the session and drumagog it in when you mix. Throw a mic on beater and EQ it for highs to get a mean snap. Build a kick tunnel and throw in a LDC and EQ it for low end. Now find a nice solid drum machine sample and eq it in for low end too to.

Pretty much on every kick you want to suck the crap out of the mid range. Mid range = evil.

If you do it right, you should have a totally nice sounding kick that sounds pretty natural but is a perfect sample. Now take that hit and replace every kick on the CD with it.

Personally I love an Audix D6 kick mic into an API for this stuff. Works like a charm. Good luck

[Gregg Sartiano]

If they're into doing drum tracks first, why not do scratch tracks (with you) to get tempos, etc. and then find a killer drum room & engineer and sit back while he/she does all the work for you? Heck, the room might have a 'house kit,' too, which would give alternatives to you if the drummer's stuff just isn't happening.

Oh, yeah -- as a plus, pick the engineer you wanna learn from and steal all his tricks on the band's dime. What a deal!

The whole process MAY cost $300, and it will give you a solid foundation to build on. I would up-sell the band on this (assuming they're not thinking that they're getting a whole DEMO for $300...).

Agreed on the use of samples. I use tab-to-transients and then paste in the kicks & snares to phase-match (and avoid flamming), but that's just me. SoundReplacer just seems 'off' to me. If you Beat Detect and then hand-paste the kicks & snares, the drums will sound hard-hit and solid (timing) right away. IF YOU ARE BEAT DETECT-ING, YOU MUST DO IT BEFORE TRACKING OTHER INST'S/VOCALS!

[cleantone]

There are some great suggestions here. Thanks folks! One issue is yes this is a demo recording. We have one long Sunday to record 4-6 cuts. I think just getting close to the sound he descibed will be fine. They gave me a demo they did elsewhere and were unhappy with and I will have no problem topping the drumsound. There just isn't the budget to go super crazy with post (ie I can't spend a whole day working on the kick drum). I had thought about the quarter and at least two mics, likely a 'tunnel' as well. So alot of what was said here is backing up my thoughts, which is great.

I have yet to do much clicky kick drums. Anyone care to talk about beater micing? I have never done it on the outside of the drum, what is that like? Need to flip polarity I assume?
Luckily this drummer hits like a effing jackhammer!

[Gregg Sartiano]

One long Sunday to track & mix 4-6 songs? That's suuuuuuuuuper-fast...are they tracking as a band, or drums first -- then overdub? How about vocals -- harmonies?

Hey, man, I guess Too Fast for Love was a great one-day EP...

[cleantone]

The long Sunday is for tracking. Maybe some overdubs. No mixing at all. No way I would do that. It is in thier rehearsal studio (an old factory). There is a large room and like 6-7 rooms off of that. I'll be in one of the side rooms and so will the 2 guitar, vocalist, and bass rig.

[Henchman]

The first thing I would tell them, is that if they want the quality, they need to spend the time.
4--6 songs in one day. I don't think so. Unless the band is unbelievably tight, and the drummer is unbelievably good.
If this sin't the case, then your setting yourself up to getting bad feedback from them.

If they approached their last demo this way, then I'm sure that's the reason they weren't happy.
And IMO, the difference between the "Sublime" kick and "Justice for all" is miles apart.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Henchman

The first thing I would tell them, is that if they want the quality, they need to spend the time.
4--6 songs in one day. I don't think so. Unless the band is unbelievably tight, and the drummer is unbelievably good.
If this sin't the case, then your setting yourself up to getting bad feedback from them.

If they approached their last demo this way, then I'm sure that's the reason they weren't happy.
And IMO, the difference between the "Sublime" kick and "Justice for all" is miles apart.

I thought the guy had a problem with the kick sound not the performance?

4-6 songs is very realistic.

Why drag it out?

Its usually the first or second takes that are kept anyway.

The kick sound they require can be massaged in the mix.

Just make sure when it comes to mix time everyone is on the same page in terms of sounds and you'll be ok.

Enginneering is not rocket science.

Your job is to give them what they want within your the best of your ability.

The only times where an opinion is valid in my opinion is if you are the producer and this isn't the case right?

[cleantone]

I'll be mildly taking the producer role when mixing. There isn't an actual 'producer' so it's between me and them. I think it is pretty realistic to get the songs to tape in one day. It'll be a long day I'm sure but they will be well rehearsed. They are actually pretty tight.

Since you seem to care, I'm not sure it was Sublime he said but I can't remember anyway. We had a meeting to look at the space and let me hear the group. When he expressed disliking the last demo they did for the drum sound I asked what he was looking for. It doesn't need to be a clone of that sound. He just wants a cracking snare and attacky kick I guess. We will spend some time working on the sound going to tape before tracking or course. It's gonna be cake to overshadow the last one they paid for I can tell you that.

[cleantone]

Sublime? I just remembered it was Deftones that he mentioned that day. Thought I'd post it in case it redeems me at all...

[Caldo71]

Originally Posted by cgarges

That sort of application is about the only thing I like the Shure Beta 52 for, but it WILL get you close. I also recommend a very loosely-tuned double-ply head with hard plastic beaters on the pedal. Taping a quarter to the spot where the beater hits the head will also give you a little more of that top-end "click" without having to resort to EQ right off the bat.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

I think I'd like to speak to what Chris is talking about here a little more because as a "Justice Head" I have to point out that this is one of the most useful tips you'll find...given your particular situation. A lot of people have gone off into the stratosphere with your question about multiple microphones, samples, beat replacement and all that, but I realize this is a quickie demo, so honestly Chris' "quarter trick" is gonna be the biggest helper believe it or not. More on that:

A drummer I recorded this year came in with a very middle-of-the-road Tama kick drum, and when I mic'ed his kick and he started playing I had a moment where I suddenly heard that "Lars Sound" coming through my speakers and so I asked him what the secret was. Turns out they actually sell these little vinyl sticker things you can attach to your kick that have a metal disc inside 'em. That and a plastic or wood beater will get you far. Next session I had where I had a drummer who wanted that but didn't know the trick, I bought a pair of very large fender washers (a cheap and common nickel washer with a very big outer diameter proportionally to very small center hole) from the harware store (total cost 50 cents) and duct-taped 'em (stacked) to the kick. Worked like the real deal.

All this by way of saying a relatively lowbrow trick to help get that sampled, clickey sound without the fuss...I would bet that Lars and a lot of those kinda guys do this but maybe not, idunno. Somebody's "tunnel" idea is a winner too for this kinda music, because with less bleed from the rest of the kit you can EQ the shit outta the kick and give it that "scooped" sound without making the rest of the kit sound ****ed up.

Isn't it funny that the same E.Q. sound we crave for Nü-Metal guitar is the sound we crave for the kick as well? Discuss.

[enharmonic]

I just can't help myself...

[Bolt Thrower]

To build on Joel's comments, you could also grab a sample library like Purrrfect Drums, which has some kicks that IMO sound really great for metal. You could just make copies of the kick track you record, pick one or more kicks from the library, and use Drumagog or the like to insert the sample of choice. Then you'll have a set of kick tracks you can process and mix to taste.

Purrfect Drums is really cheap ($199) and they actually have a Drumagog version:

http://www.drumagog.com/purrrfect.asp

I own the GigaStudio version and I love it. Jim Roseberry (the developer) is a drummer and recorded the samples in a very slutty fashion. Quite a few different kicks were recorded with nice pres, EQ, and converters.

This approach would give you a set of sounds you can use on future projects, and once you get used to the process you could work quickly.

[Froombosch]

As far as I know they used a RE-20 on kick for that album...

[alphajerk]

doing samples are so lame... tape a quarter to the kick and use a plastic beater. that will pretty much get you all the way there if the drum is tuned right. just stick a mic inside the kick and movie it until you get a nice ratio of click to bottom.

[paultools]

I do lots of screamo/emo stuff.

The Audio Technica AE25000 works well for this....
I use a steep hi-pass filter on the condenser mic and maybe even goose the hi end around 3-5k, record the dynamic to taste, and then supplement it all with the Yamaha Sub-Kik.

I have also gotten good results with the Audix D6 pointed at the beater(s) a few inches away from the head.

A last resort is Sound Replacer... used it when a guy refused to go with a single head or hole in the front head. I put a mic as close to the impact point as I could get it and used that to trigger a tappy Linn sample.

[paultools]

Does anyone else have the "Some Kind of Monster" DVD?
Man, some of the stuff sounds HUGE coming thru my TV speakers... puzzled as to why the record didn't sound that way.
I am not a Bob Rock basher though... his job is to make records that sell. thumbsup
"St. Anger" = too much water, not enough wine... and what's up with the co-op songwriting? You know when a client brings a buddy to a session, and he starts giving you advice about what you are doing... you know that feeling!?! I knew it was all downhill once the psycho-analyst started contributing lyrics!

[blackcatdigi]

For you guys suggesting the quarter/ductape thing; Been there, done that, learned something pretty quick:

IME, this will only work for a short time. The beater will quickly wear through the outer ply of the tape and start sticking to the glue. At first, it will just stick for a few ms, (enough to screw up the drummers timing) then sooner or later, it will just stick to the tape and not come off. And it WILL happen during the best take. At this point, the beater will have to be thoroughly cleaned of glue, or replaced and the quarter retaped. A major PITA, and not very conducive to quick tracking, studio flow, or vibe.

Just spend the $2 or whatever and get a friggin Danmar click pad (the one with the plastic disc in it) or just use an Evans or Remo kik pad.

[Caldo71]

Originally Posted by paultools

Does anyone else have the "Some Kind of Monster" DVD?
Man, some of the stuff sounds HUGE coming thru my TV speakers... puzzled as to why the record didn't sound that way.
I am not a Bob Rock basher though... his job is to make records that sell. thumbsup
"St. Anger" = too much water, not enough wine... and what's up with the co-op songwriting? You know when a client brings a buddy to a session, and he starts giving you advice about what you are doing... you know that feeling!?! I knew it was all downhill once the psycho-analyst started contributing lyrics!

Man, you nailed it. Screw that collaborative crap. There's a reason James wrote all the songs...he's the man with the plan. Those guys can't possibly believe that they can come in trying to write decent lyrics and song structures with zero experience and trump somebody that's been doing it for real every day for 20 years. The lyrics, the cadences and rythms of the vocals are just textbook amateurism and bad high-school poetry all the way. They really drag down what little validity was left in that album after all the pathetic yes-man micromanagement and misdirection took it's inital toll.

Not that James had been exactly cranking out real gems the last five years, but still. You can still see him struggling with how shitty all the collaborative music is and so much as TELLING the rest of the band (and the analyst) so, and even though he's CORRECT, he's asked to basically operate completly against his natural songwriting instincts AT THE ADVICE OF HIS SHRINK in ordert to somehow "come together as a band". As if that Analyst had any clue what that even means. It's disheartening because you can see the inner dialogue, and James already has the answer: it's "screw you guys, I'll make my own fuicking record". But of course it never leaves his lips even though you KNOW he just wants to smash them all to bits.

The whole "group shrink" thing was just soooo sad...it's like those guys are too bewitched by record company jizzbags trying to keep the money machine rolling to wipe their own asses anymore. Personally I'm rooting for James to fall off the wagon and get divorced pronto.

I also agree that the album sounded great on the DVD...even the snare sounded WAAAAY better. What happened?

There's a tie-in to the kick sound thing here in a way: If you're in a very organic-sounding band or something, you would NEVER use drum samples...that would sound very gay indeed. But in metal it can be completely appropriate and perhaps exactly what that kind of mix NEEDS to make sure everything's occupying the correct space. If you're in a band like Metallica, you should NEVER let some corporate ********* try and counsel you on working together as a collaborative songwriting team to "reinvent" yourself, but in another type of band, that kind of thing might be just what the doctor ordered...in a good way.

Whether you're talking about songwriting or making records, ultimately the only person that knows the right way to do things is the one person with the master vision. Nobody else is qualified and they probably have alterior motives.

Thank you...I'll be here all week.

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by blackcatdigi

For you guys suggesting the quarter/ductape thing; Been there, done that, learned something pretty quick:

never had that problem... the bigger problem i had on longer session was the quarter tearing through the head. however it has been about 12? years since i have done this method [although seriously thinking about doing it next album, band is perfect for it] and cant remember what kind of tape i used.

but get that plastic click pad if you wanna play it safe. personally, i found the quarter to be "warmer", especially quarters circa 1987-89.

[everybody's x]

Audix D6 and a plastic beater and you are there thumbsup

[Caldo71]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

never had that problem... the bigger problem i had on longer session was the quarter tearing through the head. however it has been about 12? years since i have done this method [although seriously thinking about doing it next album, band is perfect for it] and cant remember what kind of tape i used.

but get that plastic click pad if you wanna play it safe. personally, i found the quarter to be "warmer", especially quarters circa 1987-89.

Yeah, that's all true...I did forget that the drummer on my session totally smashed open one beater head with the fender washer thing. Caveat Emptor! Still...technical problems aside it's The Sound.

[alphajerk]

what i found helps with that, is to use tape [duct tape? damn i wish i could remember] and then the quarter, then tape on top of that. i do like using thicker heads [like emporer] when using the quarter method. and tune AFTER the quarter is in place.

but those clickpads could work, when i was doing this, they didnt exist... or at least i dont think they did.

[paultools]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

personally, i found the quarter to be "warmer", especially quarters circa 1987-89.

Actually Alpha, the only worthy quarters were minted out of post-SALT-II treaty quarters around 1982. They contained a special blend of copper and nickel with a special, secret alloy made our of diabled atomic warheads. Thus, they were actually .001% HEAVIER that the standard Denver-mint issues, obviously making them better-suited for the application in metal music. The '89 quarters were OK.
I personally prefer the 1965 Half-Dollars (think Black Sabbath-"Paranoid").
Gives you a suprisingly smaller, more "focused" sound when used with a 24" kik.
YMMV.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

but those clickpads could work, when i was doing this, they didnt exist... or at least i dont think they did.

Well, I was using them around 17 years ago, so you just weren't a drummer!

One night at a gig with new kik heads/clickpads on, I wore through the material that held the disc in place on the main kik. I was using wood beaters, so I really didn't want to play the rest of the set on an unprotected brand new head. My drum tech (finally) notices me screaming at him over the Marshalls, runs up and 'ducts it' back on (while I just play left kik drum). 2 or 3 songs later, beater starts slightly sticking to tape before rebounding. Gradually sticking longer and longer, before just completely adhering to the tape and not coming back off! Finished the song with the left foot. Had to replace the beater on the right, cause even with a new layer of tape there was so much glue residue it STILL stuck to the head.

YMMV, but not forever!

[macr0w]

use a quarter pre 62. 900 coin silver. Better tone

[music]

You can get close with naural. I did not read all the other posts yet so I hope it hasn't been mentioned above but, I used a Tama kit with stock heads and tuned properly. Tuned properly, tuned properly. Ooops. Anyway, we put a danbar strip(metallic strip thingy) on the beater side used a Iron Cobra double pedal with a Plastic beater. I put a d112 just inside the hole in the front (non beater side) and aimed it at where the beaters hit. We ran that through an API 3124, sucked out around 250 hz, compressed it a bit and Clickity Clickity Clack. Or just trigger the whole shebang with ddrum triggers or sound replace in Pro Tools and be on your way. I personally think you can get that sound with an acoustic kit tuned, mic'd, preamp'd, eq'd and compressed properly.

Worked for me and sounds awesome.

Hope this helps,

Keith

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I thought the guy had a problem with the kick sound not the performance?

4-6 songs is very realistic.

Why drag it out?

Its usually the first or second takes that are kept anyway.

Yep..

thumbsup

Did a 12 song punk CD 'bout 6 years ago tracked, mixed, sequenced and "mastered" in 8 hours... Boom babby!!!!

They wanted low-fi. they got it. They ened up releasing it on vinyl and they loved it. Me on the other hand I know it sounds bad and I would want it to sound better but they were the client they were happy so I am happy in the end.....

Ahhh those were the days..