Rate my recording setup!

[jimcroisdale]

Hi all,

I have had a thread running for some time in the 'Low End' section. Someone suggested that I might be better putting the thread here instead, so here we are.

See the old thread - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-e...ing-setup.html

I'm putting a mobile recording system together. I want to be able to track at the rehearsal studio and mix at home. I'll need at least 8 simultaneous channels and I have to be able to fit it all in my car. Quality wise, It needs to be at least as good as my local £20ph studio.


This is what I'm thinking at the moment - comments would be most welcome!

• Laptop computer - Samsung R710 with Firewire card
• External Firewire hard-drive for audio
• Cubase SX3 or 4
• Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface
• Behringer ADA8000 connected to above via ADAT
• 4-way headphone amp

This would give me 16channels. The Saffire Pro 40 has onboard zero latency monitor mixing controllable via software. This is great for me as I plan to track the drums whilst the guitar and bass play along via a POD. Obviously all three musicians will be able to hear the drums/guitar/bass in their headphones, whilst only the drums are recorded.


I already have:

• 2x Rode NT1 - (Drum overheads)
• 1x Rode NT2 - (Vocals)
• 1x AKG C3000
• 1x Shure SM57 - (Snare, guitars)
• 1x Shure SM58 (Rock vocals?)
• 1x AKG D112 (Kick drum and bass guitar)
• Event 20/20 monitors and Quad 520f power amp

What do you think? What am I missing? Should i go for it?

Cheers,
Jim

[John Willett]

Samsung are good - I have an X50 at the mo.

I think you will need the Firewire for the Saffire (good choice if you can't afford an RME) so I, personally, would use a USB external drive instead, preferably a tough drive. But you may like to consider flash drives as 16GB CF cards are now under £100 and 32GB SD cards are now available.

Personally I prefer Samplitude over Cubase, but that's your choice.

Behringer I would not touch with a bargepole.

[matt thomas]

I'd swap the behringer for the mackie onyx 800, they also make some units that connect via firewire (oh I just looked them up, there is a big price difference) (m-audio has a cheaper option too)

I'd also consider swapping the rodes for something else, maybe akg

narco

[jimcroisdale]

The firewire card has two slots, so I should be able to connect to both the Saffire and the External drive. I think the external drive will have to be FW for speed, that's what I've been told anyway.

As for the Behringer. I probably won't ever need to use it for anything more than extra inputs for scratch guitars/bass on tracking the drums, so quality isn't that important, as long as it works. Why does everyone hate them so much? The SOS review said nothing but good things.

The mackie looks the biz, but costs too much for me!

Cheers,

Jim

[Neon Heart]

you may want to have a look at the ADA8000/Aurora thread where most people mistakened the Behringer for the Lynx in a blind test.

[-Noodles-]

Keep with the firewire drive.
Better to be safe than sorry.

[jimcroisdale]

Wow! Amazing thread. Just shows, doen't it?

I understand that the build quality of Behringer is not as good as some, but the sound quality certainly seems ok. Mind you. that test was just for the convertors, not the mic pres....

Back to my setup.

I was wondering if Cubase is the way to go? I've used Pro Tools in the past but have decided against that here as the hardware choices are too limiting. Which DAW, if not Cubase, am I going to be better off with?

Cheers,

Jim

[ScumBum]

I give your setup a 5

[jimcroisdale]

Out of what?

[modooo]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Hi all,

I have

I already have:

• 2x Rode NT1 - (Drum overheads)
• 1x Rode NT2 - (Vocals)
• 1x AKG C3000
• 1x Shure SM57 - (Snare, guitars)
• 1x Shure SM58 (Rock vocals?)
• 1x AKG D112 (Kick drum and bass guitar)
• Event 20/20 monitors and Quad 520f power amp

What do you think? What am I missing? Should i go for it?

Cheers,
Jim

you miss the musicians which sould be recorded

[jimcroisdale]

Haha - fair point.

The main reason I'm doing this is to record MY band!

I've been playing guitar 15 years and am semi-pro (well, more like quarter-pro - I gig twice a week in a covers band), my friend is a great bass player and I'm lucky enough to have another friend who is a pro drummer. He plays for an Abba tribute act in the UK called Voulez Vous! He hits his drums hard, and his cymbals soft. Heaven!

So there we are!

Scumbum - five out of what?!

[Blast9]

You're missing some flatter-sounding condenser mics I reckon, plus a "money" mic pre.

When I say "money" I mean "more than decent" quality to make the most of your dynamic mics for vocals.

Thats why it still might be a good idea to check out the firewire Onyx stuff.

I recently had the bad luck to record through my Digi 002 pre for vocals, as my Chameleon Labs pre is out on loan to a friend - "give it back!!!!" - shite - never realised how lacklustre they are.

[jimcroisdale]

Mics aside, you think I would benefit from a better mic pre?

Any suggestions?

Would it be a unit that I connect to the Pro 40 via S/Pdif? I know that taking a line out from a tasty mic pre and running that into the line in in the Pro 40 will not be the best solution. Even though the unit is accepting a line level signal, it still goes through the 40's pre.

Champagne from a paper cup......

Jim

[Blast9]

Yeah you're right, but believe me there is still a noticeable difference with the Digi 002 line-in, even using a TL Audio Ivory 5051 mk 1, which isn't the best thing out there, but definitely better than the 002 pres.

Perhaps the Saffire pres are better than the Digi 002 - quite feasible.

In any case you're missing headroom, clarity, dimension, depth, "size" - I'm not even referring to "coloured pres" either - decent even clean pres will have this quality.

I can only recommend what I use - Chameleon Labs pre/EQ.

Superb EQ, nice clear sound, sounds nice overdriven, esp with the EQ switched in.

Does the Onyx range have SPDIF out I wonder?

Funky Junk are UK distributors.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Wow! Amazing thread. Just shows, doen't it?

I understand that the build quality of Behringer is not as good as some, but the sound quality certainly seems ok. Mind you. that test was just for the convertors, not the mic pres....

Back to my setup.

I was wondering if Cubase is the way to go? I've used Pro Tools in the past but have decided against that here as the hardware choices are too limiting. Which DAW, if not Cubase, am I going to be better off with?

Cheers,

Jim

You are thinking logically with Cubase SX3 or C4, you are one of the few I've seen here who get that the limitations of Protools are ridiculous and expensive. SX3 and certainly C4 are more capable than PTHD. Get the Steinberg/Yamaha MR816 CSX interface, integrates directly with Cubase4, is still great with SX3. This really a Yamaha piece with their premium converters and mic pres that I am very familiar with. It will eliminate the need for a "money" pre (they are as good or better than the ones in their $60,000 consoles) and will blow the doors off of the Saffire, RME, and just about anything else under 2 grand. You can stack up to 3 of these interfaces, and of course go ADAT lightpipe in/out with an ADA8000 (there is nothing wrong the ADA8000!) or anything else. This would be as solid and cost effective of a core system as you could get.

[jimcroisdale]

Wow! That does look good. It's a bit more than the Pro 40 but not too much more....

One question though.

When I lightpipe the eight extra pres in from the Behringer, will I have individual control over these channels in the monitoring section?

(I notice it has a DSP monitoring system like the Pro 40 - but the Yam has reverb too!)

Has anyonel else used one of these beauties?

Jim

[piano]

I'd rate 2 out of 10 in terms of audio hi fi quality gear.

You asked.....

However, you a get a 10 for getting the job done on the cheap.

[jimcroisdale]

2 out of 10 - Ouch!

Surely though, the system is top quality for the money?

I know I could always make it better by chucking £5k more at the situation, but like I keep saying all I want to do is match/better the quality of my local £20p/h studio.

He is using a MOTU 24/24 interface, and using his Ghost console for all mic pres. Surely the Focusrite will be better than that?

And what of the Yamaha unit that Beyersound mentions? If it's as good as he says, surely I must rate at least a 3 out of 10?

[jimcroisdale]

Beyersound - is there a difference between the MR816 X and the MR816 CSX? The prices vary wildly!

[Blast9]

I think the Soundcraft pres are pretty well regarded. Although you may be at an advantage because you're not running the audio through a whole desk, just a pre, i.e. shorter signal path.

But seriously if you wanna improve on the other guy, make sure you upgrade your mics too! I think you have plenty of sizzle there with yr condensers, and not enough beef.

My suggestion - Look into a pair of Kel Audio HM1 or HM2D mics - plenty beefy, and cheap but not crap! Or if you have the cash, a pair of AT4050.

Dynamics - what about the Telefunken M80 - very refined apparently, same with teh Heil Pro PR30 and 40

Maybe check out those mini Swedish condensers... Line Audio - pretty flat freq respones apparently

[dubrichie]

dunno bout those Steinberg / Yamaha units - IF they work properly they could be great... but considering Steinberg's history with hardware, it's a BIG IF.

the RME FireFace units kick ass. they sound better than anything else in their price range and are ROCK SOLID, both physically and their drivers. lots of routing / monitoring options with the mixer software.

for preamps, if i were you, i would get the DAV Electronics 8-channel unit. 1U rack space, 8 great preamps, built in the UK, superb value.

oh yeah, get some better mics whenever you can afford them. so many options... so little cash!

[jimcroisdale]

Well, my current plan is as follows. I've decided to stay with the Focusrite Pro 40 - the extra £300 for the Yamaha unit is just too much

Laptop £650.00
Cubase SX3 £150.00
FW HD £70.00
FW Adapter £40.00
Focusrite Pro 40 £350.00
Behringer ADA8000 £150.00
Behringer HP amp £70.00
Rack Case £40.00
Headphones £200.00
Pocket POD £65.00

Total £1,785

Nicely under my two grand budget.....

I guess what I want is for someone to say "Yes, that will definately work", but I realise I'm not going to get that on here!! Always a different opinion, but I can't buy everything.

So I'm gonna go for it...... Wish me luck!

Jim

[Blast9]

What cans are you getting for tracking/isolation?

[jimcroisdale]

Probably get three pairs of Beyer Dt100. They sell used for around £70.

I've got a pair of Sennheiser HD25 SP which are ok, and a Sennheiser wireless set which are quite nice too.

Jim

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by modooo

you miss the musicians which sould be recorded

[ScumBum]

5 out of 10 ,

Your setup looks good but those Rode mics.....yuck , barf , puke . I have an NT2 and I hate the damn thing , rather use a 57 .

Get an SM7 for vocals for sure , you will get an awesome vocal sound .

For overheads Oktava , SM81s or if you can spend a little more AT4050 , Beyer 160 ..

Now other thing I recommend not to get is that POD , they suck . Use a good guitar amp with a 57 . If your worried about bleed from the guitar amp into the drum mics just put the amp away from the drums and cover it with thick blankets , since your on headphones turn up the guitar in the mix on the headphones so everyone can hear it .

Run Bass direct .

That should cover everything for some nice quality recordings ,

[Ozzy]

What about;

- Rack cases,
- Mic stands,
- speaker stands,
- xlr cables,
- multicores,
- headphones,
- power distro,

etc etc.

Its the boring stuff that eats your budget, so make sure you factor these things in.

Cheers,

Oz

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Wow! That does look good. It's a bit more than the Pro 40 but not too much more....

One question though.

When I lightpipe the eight extra pres in from the Behringer, will I have individual control over these channels in the monitoring section?

(I notice it has a DSP monitoring system like the Pro 40 - but the Yam has reverb too!)

Has anyonel else used one of these beauties?

Jim

The answer is yes! They will show up as their own channels in the interface software console, and directly in the Cubase mixer if you buy C4. That interface software console is a godsend, I use a similar one with my EMU 1820m. It not only will give a full zero latency direct monitor mix, it has its own dsp effects, including the REV-X reverb from the SPX-2000. I would spend the extra $500 on it, be a little over budget and know I won't have to upgrade later. The reason I know the Yamaha electronics so well is that I have one of those $60,000 consoles I mentioned, the PM-5D. The hardware of this unit is all Yamaha (they now own Steinberg) so it has no relationship to any previous Steinberg hardware. The converters are amazing, and the preamps are very high end sounding. One of my colleagues (that I mix for all the time) recently bought one and just sent me some test tracks: Acoustic guitars, Vocals, and keys. They are very warm but tight, and with a very transparent and shimmery top, not unlike many multi thousand dollar pres I have heard.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Probably get three pairs of Beyer Dt100. They sell used for around £70.

I've got a pair of Sennheiser HD25 SP which are ok, and a Sennheiser wireless set which are quite nice too.

Jim

I suggest getting Sennheiser HD280 Pro for decent isolation (around £65 new). I much prefer the sound of those to the DT100 or DT150 - also swap the HD25 SP for the HD25 (the ones with the split headband) - you'll be really happy with the clarity and power of the drivers in those compared to the SP

[jimcroisdale]

Wow! Lots of great advice there! It's cool being in the UK, 'cos when I get up in the morning all you Americans have left loads of posts overnight!

So, where to start.

Yes, I agree that the NT1's are not best for overheads. However, they will have to do for now. I think that when I have more experience in recording with them I will know what I DON'T LIKE about their sound, and will have a better idea of where to go from there.

Guitar POD. Yes, I agree, they sound poor. I am only going to use mine for laying guide tracks when tracking drums. Obviously I can't have a cab in the room or it will bleed into the drum mics. I have a Peavey 5150 and an Orange Tiny Terror (awesome!) which will both be getting the '57 treatment for the 'proper' guitar tracks. I've been reading the Slipperman stuff about this - brilliant!!!

As for bass guitar I was giong to split the signal with a DI box and have one direct signal and one mic'd up cab. I've got a top-end Trace Elliot stack to play with here.

As for the other stuff - cables, stands, rack cases etc - yes, I am aware of this. I have a lot of this stuff already, and what extra I need can be borrowed from the covers band that I play in.

Cheers for the heads up on the HD280 Pro headphones - I'll check those out!

So the only decision I've yet to make is: Do I spend the extra £350 on the Yamaha interface over the Saffire Pro 40.

Decisions, decisions......