Allen and Heath Zed R16, a good centrepiece?

[surreyprod.]

hello all,

I was originally looking at an apogee ensemble for the centrepiece of my new project studio, but noticed thuis awesome looking bit of kit for not much more (and I also may be able to get it at the same price).

However, I am wondering if this is a viable option, or if it is inferior to the ensemble?

For example, are the pre's and conversion as good as the apogee's or worthy enough to be a studio centrepiece?

I was planning on getting a pacifica for the "special" moments as well, but I was wondering if this is an obvious option for the analogness, the onboard EQ and the advantage of having the greater number of Mic Pre's available, for example when micing a whole band or recording a live band.

Thanks in advance! thumbsup

[Vum]

The last issue of Sound on Sound has a killer review of this unit. From what I read in the review it is a very solid piece of gear that competes well with other converters.

However, with everything there is a catch and the Zed has three major caveats:

1. No 'solo in place' function (just mutes)
2. No dedicated aux returns or digital sends from stereo channels
3. no word-clock sync

The pres are described as "classy" and the build is superb and uncompromising.

I myself and considering this purchase. If you get it first, let me know what you think. Also, there is a lot of midi control which seems like a pretty rad prospect.

[surreyprod.]

Cheers, I was looking at picking that SOS issue up.

It looks like a great unit, the solo thing is just an annoyance really, but I really need to take a look at the unit.

It just seems to be able to do soooo much more than the apogee, at a little higher price point.

I'm looking to get the unit at around early december time.


Anyone else fancy chiming in?

[trock]

i sold my RME FF 800 and went this route but with an yamaha N12 for my cubase setup. what i mean is, i decided to get a board like this and see how i liked working this way and what all it brought to the table

well it brought

Just as good AD/DA
Just as stable
a ton more ability with my chosen DAW, transport, CR for 3 sets of monitors, AUX sends for 2 sets of headphones, great pre's, eq, comp, and reverb

the abiltiy to mix back out and thru a console etc etc etc

i think this A&H is a bad ass looking unit also, if i wasn't on cubase (i have sonar 7PE also) after my experience with this new hybrid and i feel future approach, i would get this without hesitation

i get the best of bother worlds for those concerned with no moving faders

i midi connect a mixed logic M24 to my n12 for DAW control with moving faders and use the N12 for everything else

crazy

[surreyprod.]

That's exactly the kind of info i need, real world use with a smashing bit of kit such as this.

Excellent replies from the both of you, keep em coming!

[Vum]

You won't find better pres or eq at this price point or slightly higher. As soon as I can pull the money together, i'm buying this.

ce la vie hot meals

[surreyprod.]

Yeah, like I said, I plan on getting some "nicer" pre's further on down the line anyway.

I'm just wondering if the apogee ensemble is the much better sounding unit, as the Zedr16 seems a bit too good to be true?

16 pre's on a feature stacked FW board - 1500
4 pre's on a not so feature stacked FW interface - 1200.

As much as I dont want them to, there's still alarm bells going off in my head, at that kind of price point, something really must be crap on the allen and heath, and not just something niggly?

[surreyprod.]

bump for the night slutz?

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by surreyprod.

Yeah, like I said, I plan on getting some "nicer" pre's further on down the line anyway.

I'm just wondering if the apogee ensemble is the much better sounding unit, as the Zedr16 seems a bit too good to be true?

16 pre's on a feature stacked FW board - 1500
4 pre's on a not so feature stacked FW interface - 1200.

As much as I dont want them to, there's still alarm bells going off in my head, at that kind of price point, something really must be crap on the allen and heath, and not just something niggly?

At that price point, I doubt if a comparison of the A&H and the Appogee is even fair.
If you want to add "higher-end" pres in the future, you'll have to run their output through the Zed (instead of an external A/D, because you can't sync the two).
Kind of besides the point, methinks.
Until it gets a Wordclock input, the ZedR16 will only have a limited appeal for the pro market.
And fullsize (100 mm) faders would be nice, too.

All in all, lots of cool ideas in this desk, but there needs to be a MK2 model.


EDIT: I just noticed there are ADAT inputs on the ZedR16, so it could be slaved to another digital source after all. Still courious how many of those can be used at 96 or even 192kHz, though...

[surreyprod.]

hmm. It seems I have a lot to think about.

so it really is Apogee Ensemble VS Allen and Heath ZedR16.

obviously the Allen and Heath is more feature packed, has the ability of a control surface, and offers the analogue side of things

But being around the same price, there must be something about the apogee sound that just kicks the ZedR16's arse?

So far im leaning more towards the ZedR16, but I dont wanna make the wrong choice for a project studio centrepiece.

Also, this is going to sound super stupid but what benefit would I get with a more expensive word clock?

[surreyprod.]

also, the fact that the A&H doesn't have motorized faders worries me. Does this mean that If I move a fader in logic, it will then be out of sync with the faders on the A&H?

I wonder if I'm better off with an ensemble + control surface, then getting some nicer pre's a bit later on?

Anyone want to suggest a control surface?

[trock]

I don't use logic but i was in the same quandry when the N12 came out

again, all i did was MIDI connect my mixed logic M24

Mixed Logic

to it and now i had full daw control and my analog/digital mixer with all its capabilities

maybe get an MCU pro and midi it to the A&H and have the best of BOTH worlds

or get crazy and get an MCU and 2 ct's and the A&H

[surreyprod.]

Say I were to get an ensemble, and an mcu pro. Then a bit later on, get an mcu expander, and some mic pre's to fill the other inputs on the ensemble (for a total of 8).

Is that a good option?

Or,

get the A & H and make do for a while with getting around it somehow, then get an mcu pro and expander? (for a total of 16, but not as good as the apogee's)

option 1 I have higher quality, but not quantity,

option 2 I have higher quantity, and the analogue eq etc, but not as good quality.

Is the difference negligible, or bloody huge?

[Vum]

I think it could still be a pretty handy piece of gear with a DAW without the motorized faders.

You could group tracks in the DAW and route them to an AUX track that returns to the desk in stereo, that way you are essentially controlling the stems with the actual desk and there won't be any issue with syncing the faders.

It's not very often that I only have 16 tracks in a session these days so presumably I'd nearly always sum groups in PT and then shoot the groups to the desk via an AUX.

If there is another way for me to get 16 A&H quality pres/eq into my Digi002r for less cash, please let me know!

[surreyprod.]

Yeah....

I guess. My current thinking is that I dont NEED the extra tracks at the moment, and by next year (when the new building becomes available) I will have been able to build upon the apogee ensemble.

It seems pretty obvious that the conversion and pre's are of a better quality, then again I may be wrong.

In a way, a sense of "you get what you pay for?"

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by surreyprod.

(...)Also, this is going to sound super stupid but what benefit would I get with a more expensive word clock?

You need wordclock to synch two or more independent digital devices in a common setup.
Wordclock can be either transmitted via dedicated connectors (BNC), or embedded in a digital signal.
In the case of the ZedR16, it would receive (and transmit) the clock signal via the ADAT Optical connectors (the other method would be via the XLR in an AES/EBU connection, which the R16 doesn't have)
As long as there's only one other device, you can slave the ZedR16 to its incoming signal, without the need for an external WC generator.
Regarding the ADAT optical connection: up to 48 Khz it supports 8 channels. With 88.2 or 96 kHz this drops to 4, and even 2 with 176.4 or 192.

As for the question wether a single device's audio quality can be improved by hooking it up to a high-quality external WC generator: it has sparked controversies, on this and other forums, that have bordered on Jihad; and I have no interrest in reopening that can of worms.

[FeatheredSerpent]

Originally Posted by Vum

I think it could still be a pretty handy piece of gear with a DAW without the motorized faders.

You could group tracks in the DAW and route them to an AUX track that returns to the desk in stereo, that way you are essentially controlling the stems with the actual desk and there won't be any issue with syncing the faders.

But isn't that completely counter-productive as then you are missing the opportunity to use analogue summing at the track level?

[Vum]

No more counter productive than any other 16 channel mixer. I don't see how there can be a moderately complex mix on this board per channel. Even with a 24 channel desk, I'd most likely be doing a lot of work ITB.

That's just my mix preference though.

[surreyprod.]

thanks for your help guys!

And the clock explanation, andychamp.

I think i'm gonna go for my original plan + a control surface.

I need it to be under the 1000 gbp mark, (so obviously feel free to suggest!

so the two obvious choices would be the MCU pro and the euphonix MC mix unit. I obviously want something that will sit comfortably on a desk, and have that semi pro quality feel.

SO far i'm leaning towards the MCU pro, as the euphonix seems tiny and too "compact" as it may be.

Now the higher end MC product on the other hand.....is only 9 grand more....

[Steffmo]

I owrked for allen and Heath for a long time, though not recentlyThe Zed is a cery A and H piece, and I spent a lot of time at the last AES with Glen Rogers, who has been chief design guy at A and H forever, wna who did much of the Zed. I think I can shed some light on what this thing can and can't do for you

Mic pres (16). Look..its nor a Neve, not a Great River or API. But its way better than a Presonus or Mackie. So for those in the middle I think its a step up. A and H has always made a nice pre, and Glen feels this is a bit better than in much of their line. I've done several national gospel remotes with Mix Wizards and the results are always very workable, So this should be excellent.

EQ...an excellent anlog EQ. No junior, it isn't a Pultec. But I guarantee you it will hold its own against MUCH more expensive stuff.

Master section. You won't need a Central station, or something more expensive. Just because Allen and Heath hasn't made a lot of recording gear ately doesn't men that they don't uderstand how a studio works.

Summing. Is really what I think the faders are made for. Use your DAW to automate, sum to the faders. You don't really need motorized faders for this, but you can still write automation mivs with these faders. No need to have moving faders for , you might have to crodd the null to write, like in legacy systems.

Market wise its squarely in the middle, aimed at the rirepod guys toeliminate a lot of piecemeal gear.

BTW, the build was supe on the one i tried.

[tubeydude]

steffmo,

I am really looking at this unit. I right now have a Sigma 24S (similar to the one you have, we talked a few months back...) I dig the Sigma but it does have some issues for a old board that was brought back from being infested with rats (I wish I was joking). Noisy pots, some mutes not working, etc. It's also big for the small space I have...

Anyway the ZED looks like it can do everything I might need and more. The pres on the Sigma are nice and way better than the pres on teh firepods (although I am just using my two firepods as AD/DA) I'm sure the converters are better on the ZED, but how do you think the pres compare?

You are quite familiar with the Sigma pres I'm sure. What do you think of the Zed R16's?

I'd love to hear what you think.

Thanks,

Erik

[jasongardner]

Just been posting in the NEW PRODUCT forum.
Had the ZED-16R for 2 days and i am blown away with the EQ and the monitor section. Will be trying The pre amps and A/D over the weekend and will do a shoot out with Neve pre to Rosetta conversion against the Zed pre to Zed A/D. Should i post both results and let you decide?

Not got time for this but, so impressed with the ZED i would like your opinion.

Look out for AKGC12, to ZED,to ZED, versus AKG C12, to Neve, to Rosetta You decide.

Hopefully posted on the 25TH

Wonder if you will see some high end gear for sale

[jasongardner]

See you are here tubeydude, hope i help you decide, but remember the gear is only 1 % of the music

But its that us SlutZ i Love
and i Love the SlutZ

[LSProductions]

Originally Posted by jasongardner

Just been posting in the NEW PRODUCT forum.
Had the ZED-16R for 2 days and i am blown away with the EQ and the monitor section. Will be trying The pre amps and A/D over the weekend and will do a shoot out with Neve pre to Rosetta conversion against the Zed pre to Zed A/D. Should i post both results and let you decide?

Not got time for this but, so impressed with the ZED i would like your opinion.

Look out for AKGC12, to ZED,to ZED, versus AKG C12, to Neve, to Rosetta You decide.

Hopefully posted on the 25TH

Wonder if you will see some high end gear for sale

Just checking to see if you had posted the "Neve/Rosetta vs. Zed/Zed A/D shootout" , and I just missed it somehow?

If you haven't, I know it's a pain, but I for one am really interested in hearing how this thing sounds. For me, all the Zed's other features aside,.. will it make my mixes "sound" better than they do now,.. which currently is achieved by mixing ITB, with a few hardware pieces inserted.

The R-16 can have a ton of digital functionality, but if it doesn't have an analog "mojo", so to speak,.. then I don't know if I can pull the trigger on it.

Anyway, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could indeed post the examples.

Thanks either way.

Marc

[manning1]

re sterile.
i find lots of todays gear is just too sterile.
or clinical.
i think it must be the op amps used.

[gizeh12]

Originally Posted by LSProductions

will the ZED make my mixes "sound" better than they do now,.. which currently is achieved by mixing ITB, with a few hardware pieces inserted.

The R-16 can have a ton of digital functionality, but if it doesn't have an analog "mojo", so to speak,.. then I don't know if I can pull the trigger on it.


Marc

My question exectaly!!!!
Can anyone give some input on this?

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by surreyprod.

Yeah, like I said, I plan on getting some "nicer" pre's further on down the line anyway.

I'm just wondering if the apogee ensemble is the much better sounding unit, as the Zedr16 seems a bit too good to be true?

16 pre's on a feature stacked FW board - 1500
4 pre's on a not so feature stacked FW interface - 1200.

As much as I dont want them to, there's still alarm bells going off in my head, at that kind of price point, something really must be crap on the allen and heath, and not just something niggly?

Where did you find the ZED R16 for $1500??

[vientos00]

I don't know about the rest of you, but it looks like this is the way to go for me. I've had a small DAW for a long time now. 8 crappy inputs and 8 crappy pre's. Frustration city. I like letting the whole band play and just record the drummer and the bass player to get the FEEL of the music in. Can't do that on 8 tracks, not with 12 muscicians,no way. Also, pro mic pre's are expensive. Seems to me like they should be additions to the studio not a foundation to start with. The zed 428 seems to be the way, for me that is to go.Analogue pre's , digital ability, best of both worlds. I'm going to put one on layaway within the week. By the way, audiolines.com has some killer deals. Even layaway. Ask for Tom, he hooked me up

[LadoB]

I have both, the ZED and the Ensemble, and i can say that to my ears the Zed is a VERY GOOD sounding and versatile Board.

I didnt find any difference in the DA conversion doing A/B tests through ADAM A7s. Actually i found a big improvement in my mixes using the ZED as a summing mixer and using these sweet EQs. I can compared them to what i have used (Yamaha 01v96v2, Mackies, Soundcrafts and Logic and digidesign Plugins) and i like the ZED EQs much better.

In the AD conversion i found more detail in the recordings i did of my R20 by API with the Apogee Ensemble. BUT!!!! I recorded a sesion today. One take with the ZED via firewire slaved to the Apogee clock and i found it better sounding than the take i made with the Zed pres into the line inputs of the Ensemble. I CANT WAIT TO RUN SOME MORE TESTS to be sure what happened there.

Let me tell you that if i find this sound in the ZED without the apogee clock i can sell my Apogee Ensemble and get a nice outboard compressor, no regrets.

Again, i found this board really IMPRESIVE and VERSATILE is not SSL, API or NEVE but im completely shure if you have the experience you can do profesional recordings and mixes easy.
All i gotta say is: Think that your paying almost, if not the same price of the Ensemble and getting much, much, much, much more.

[granmah]

I´m thinking on selling my RME fireface 800 and buying this desk 4 using it as a firewire soundcard and a mixer... BUT,,, I always use an akai mpc as my master sequencer and logic as a slave recorder.... With just a midi out on the Allen&Heath, can I still do this? I guess I cannot as running the MPC as the master needs the mpc to feed the midi signal into the desk and that would need a midi IN on the R-16,,, The desk doesnt have midi word clock neither, so is there another way to make this?

Please, any help would be appreciate

Peace!