how to get snare decay through a dense mix.

[Colossal]

i've been listening to alot of deftones recently and the snare sound (especially on some of the newer stuff) goes on for days.



this is the sort of sound i've been trying to achieve.

i find that gating less helps untill i need to compress the snare signal to bring up the decay, then i just bring up hi-hat from the snare mic. i'm not really sure of ways around this.

any tips on presence in snare decay would be great.

peace.

[Colossal]

if video doesn't work here

YouTube - Deftones - Beware (the water)

[fooman]

SICK tune. I love this band and each of their CDs is a new type of sound for them....

[James Meeker]

Try compressing or limiting the reverb channel a little bit.

[mohthom]

well tuned drums

MohThoM

[theblue1]

Both of the suggestions above... and actually, you can compress the snare track itself, adjusting the attack, sustain level and release times to get the amount and length of uncompressed transient attack you want, as well as the amount of sustain.

[MarkRB]

Sounds like allot of hihat/cymbal bleed through a slowish gated snare to me. Much like Coldplay's "Yello".

Lots of ways to get that sound if your hi-hat isn't bleeding enough

Reverb on a tight gated under snare works like that, then Eq in some lo-end and squash.

[Recycled_Brains]

That record sounds like it has a fair amount of room sound in the drums. On the ones that Terry Date produced, the snare sounds heavily compressed.

Abe Cunningham is no joke on the kit either, so some of it has to do with the way he's hitting and tuning the drums. He definately plays really ****ing hard.


Things I like to do with the snare to get big decay:

- duplicate, distort the duplicate, compress the attack right out of it, use slow-med. release to bring out the tail, give it a huge midrange bump to accentuate the "rattle" (massey 3-band EQ is GREAT for this), blend with dry snare... maybe gate it.

for distortion I like amp farm, massey tapehead, distressor, or driving the input of my TAB-Funkenwerk V78 preamp hard.

- parallel compression... again, smash the attack right out of the hit, and use a medium or slow release to bring out the tail... blend w/ dry snare.... again, maybe gate it.

Also, there's a cool article in the new Tape Op about reamping drums. To sum it up:

- take snare track in DAW or whatever, and gate it so that just the initial transient is left
- Run the gated snare track out to a guitar amp, via a reamping device of some kind.
- Place a snare drum, snare side (bottom) up, on top of the amps speaker (lay amp down on its back on floor)
- mic the snare.
-record it back into your DAW or whatever your using, and blend with the original snare track
- get rid of the gated track.

May have left something out. Try to find the article if you can.

[Louderock]

This is funny. I read the thread title and think - yeah, I'd like to know how to get some good snare decay. Let's see what people say. Well, the link is to a song I mixed. I mixed that Deftones record so I can help you a lot with that one.

There are 2 different kits on that song. Verse is one kit and chorus is another. Mixed on a SSL G. Little bit of channel compression on the snare track via SSL and a SPL Transient Designer on the insert. Parallel compression on the drums with a Fatso. There is a bit of a sample mixed underneath the chorus snare for the bright cracking sound but it is not roomy at all. I mixed that at Westlake and I think there may have been a small amount of TC M3000 Reverb (Emt 250 emulator) but this would have been pretty short - .8 - 1 seconds. I'd say the Transient Designer and the parallel compression are the biggest factors. Oh yeah, and the fact that Abe is a great drummer.

[MarkRB]

LOL, coolest answer ever.

That very rarely happens on GS.

:How do I get this sound?

:well... I...

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by Louderock

This is funny. I read the thread title and think - yeah, I'd like to know how to get some good snare decay. Let's see what people say. Well, the link is to a song I mixed. I mixed that Deftones record so I can help you a lot with that one.

There are 2 different kits on that song. Verse is one kit and chorus is another. Mixed on a SSL G. Little bit of channel compression on the snare track via SSL and a SPL Transient Designer on the insert. Parallel compression on the drums with a Fatso. There is a bit of a sample mixed underneath the chorus snare for the bright cracking sound but it is not roomy at all. I mixed that at Westlake and I think there may have been a small amount of TC M3000 Reverb (Emt 250 emulator) but this would have been pretty short - .8 - 1 seconds. I'd say the Transient Designer and the parallel compression are the biggest factors. Oh yeah, and the fact that Abe is a great drummer.

great mix on that record ryan !!

love the transient designers !!

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

[mohthom]

Sounds like the lower skin was tuned high - how was the snare tuned?

Great to see the answer from the 'President of the company!'

MohThoM

[EstateMatt]

Originally Posted by Louderock

This is funny. I read the thread title and think - yeah, I'd like to know how to get some good snare decay. Let's see what people say. Well, the link is to a song I mixed. I mixed that Deftones record so I can help you a lot with that one.

There are 2 different kits on that song. Verse is one kit and chorus is another. Mixed on a SSL G. Little bit of channel compression on the snare track via SSL and a SPL Transient Designer on the insert. Parallel compression on the drums with a Fatso. There is a bit of a sample mixed underneath the chorus snare for the bright cracking sound but it is not roomy at all. I mixed that at Westlake and I think there may have been a small amount of TC M3000 Reverb (Emt 250 emulator) but this would have been pretty short - .8 - 1 seconds. I'd say the Transient Designer and the parallel compression are the biggest factors. Oh yeah, and the fact that Abe is a great drummer.

You get all the respect I could ever give for that work.

[fooman]

Dude... which one of my fav bands have you NOT worked with.. wow.

[decibike]

classic thread. Thanks for the input Louderock. thumbsup

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Try compressing or limiting the reverb channel a little bit.

+1thumbsup

[jbsg02]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Sounds like allot of hihat/cymbal bleed through a slowish gated snare to me. Much like Coldplay's "Yello".

Lots of ways to get that sound if your hi-hat isn't bleeding enough

Reverb on a tight gated under snare works like that, then Eq in some lo-end and squash.

I remember the first time I noticed that on Yellow. It seems like he realized that he was gonna have to live with that high hat bleed to he just gated it after the high hat so it went along with the beat of the song. Wish Michael Brauer was still around to give his insight on that

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by mohthom

well tuned drums

MohThoM

And i was about to say

[Mr.HOLMES]

saturation brings the natural reverb which is in the snare nice up.....

[tombuur]

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but the original question has been answered (no doubt here), and as a hobbyist I have a question close to the subject here (came here through a search):

How do you make the snare stand out, not only the tail. I hear lots of record where the snare is so clear as if it lives in its own space. Yet I cannot do this with EQ, compression (including parallel), transient modication or reverb. My impression is that reverb is used somehow in the records I have listened too. But I cannot make it happen, I always end up getting the snare too loud so it becomes unpleasant instead.

[Colossal]

Originally Posted by tombuur

I hear lots of record where the snare is so clear as if it lives in its own space. Yet I cannot do this with EQ, compression (including parallel), transient modication or reverb. My impression is that reverb is used somehow in the records I have listened too. But I cannot make it happen, I always end up getting the snare too loud so it becomes unpleasant instead.

any examples?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by tombuur

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but the original question has been answered (no doubt here), and as a hobbyist I have a question close to the subject here (came here through a search):

How do you make the snare stand out, not only the tail. I hear lots of record where the snare is so clear as if it lives in its own space. Yet I cannot do this with EQ, compression (including parallel), transient modication or reverb. My impression is that reverb is used somehow in the records I have listened too. But I cannot make it happen, I always end up getting the snare too loud so it becomes unpleasant instead.

That's less about how you process the snare and more about how you process the instruments surrounding it. Try pulling some of the midrange outta those instruments that live in the same spectral neighborhood as the snare.

[Louderock]

My joke when I mix is that I try to get "everything louder than everything else". It's kind of true, though. I would say that getting the snare to sit right involves eq and also where everything else is sitting. That's the real trick to mixing - getting everything to work together. Some sounds in a mix may sound odd when soloed but sound just right in the mix. I don't think I ever really add a lot of eq to the snare, though. Probably 4 db at 5k or so on the SSL depending on the song and the recorded snare sound. A lot of the presence comes from the parallel compression and the channel eq/ compression. I would say that I do most of my monitoring at a really quiet volume. I get sounds/ eq pretty loud to make sure everything hits hard. Then, for balances and rides, everything is really quiet on the monitors. Also, this all takes time to get to this point. I'm not talking about each mix, I'm talking about experience. My mixes from 10 years ago don't sound anything like my mixes now. Do it long enough and focus, things start to fall into place. I'd say that I have most mixes 95% there in about an hour. Then I take breaks and do rides for a bit more and have it. I listen to other songs on the radio and blast some Zeppelin or something so I can maintain a fresh perspective. I'm always trying to be a 'listener' and not too far inside of the song where I lose perspective.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Both of the suggestions above... and actually, you can compress the snare track itself, adjusting the attack, sustain level and release times to get the amount and length of uncompressed transient attack you want, as well as the amount of sustain.

+1! I find that the 1176LN with super short attack, and adjusting the release to taste will get a sustaining decay. In the extremes you can get a "reverse" dynamic from the fast attack and release. You can also blend this in parallel to get what you want.

[tombuur]

Thanks for the help.

I have tried to find some examples on my way to work today. But I only found that those examples were composed so that the snare is very prominent. Funnily Daniel Beddingfield "Warp my Words ...", Justin Timberlake "What Goes Around" (more claps than snare) and James Blunt "Three Wise Men" all share exactly the same basic rhythm at about the same tempo. The backing simply leaves a complete hole for the snare to sound through. Other than that I recall almost anything by Fleetwood Mac as having a clearly audible snare, but this is not loud music at all.

Will see, if I can find something else more appropriate. I do realize that the method might be leaving some midrange space for the snare.

[Kingtone]

also dont forget to experiment with the predelay time on the reverb.
boost the predelay time a bit and the reverb can stand out a lot more.... gives the best part of the reverb a better space to work in if you get my drift, rather than right on the beat
experiment.. you will hear what i mean

[ORGANIK]

Damm that is awesome ! thanks loudrock !!!! LOve the deftones.

2 part question for ya....
What kits did abe use ?
I Have seen him with one of those OCP snares with the big vent holes, so the second part of the question is if that snare was used was a mic put in the large vent hole ? Always wanted to do that just dont have one of those snares...

[MHB850]

Originally Posted by jbsg02

I remember the first time I noticed that on Yellow. It seems like he realized that he was gonna have to live with that high hat bleed to he just gated it after the high hat so it went along with the beat of the song. Wish Michael Brauer was still around to give his insight on that

last time I checked, i was still alive, wait.....yep.

that snare sound is pretty well documented. I'm sure a check in the moderator or on my site breaks it down pretty well.

michael

[drmmrboy]

Originally Posted by Louderock

This is funny. I read the thread title and think - yeah, I'd like to know how to get some good snare decay. Let's see what people say. Well, the link is to a song I mixed. I mixed that Deftones record so I can help you a lot with that one.

I love this place!!

[tobyw]

It may sound a bit too obvious, but listen to the actual balance of the different parts of the mix. A lot of the time you will hear that when you're hearing a good snare sound where you can really hear the decay it's actually because it is quite loud in the mix compared with the other instruments.

Listening to the Deftones song (great mix by the way) you can hear that the snare is really one of the main things in the mix in terms of balance and this really puts it right in your face. I really think that balance is overlooked a lot of the time and people go straight to compression/eq/reverb in the hope that this will fix things just being the wrong volumes.