How do I get the kick to stand out in a mix?

[dontforgetzack]

I'm a green horn with recording drums. I'm using a Shure Beta 52A (it's cheap, I'm broke). I've practiced and experimented alot with mic placement, and I'm pretty sure I've got that as good as it can get. I want that "Ryan Greene," NoFX, Bad Religion punk sound where you can hear the whole kick cut through the mix. Is it about compression or EQ or what (I've messed with both profusely)? I've carved ridiculous EQ holes, changed heads, beaters, you name it. I've read alot of shit, and I seem to be missing something.

Mind you, I'm recording punk music with loud-ass distorted guitars. If we were dealing with acoustic guitars or a piano or something as my primary accompaniment, I'd have it licked. Help please.

[PyroDano]

Well you seem to have tried everything but a different mike.If it were me i would start there.

[pjplayer]

side-chain compression perhaps, to duck other instruments when the kick's hit? a side chain compressor plug-in is cheaper than a mic, in fact you might already have one.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by pjplayer

side-chain compression perhaps, to duck other instruments when the kick's hit? a side chain compressor plug-in is cheaper than a mic, in fact you might already have one.

no.

[amishsixstringe]

no no no. The nofx kick drum is a sample made from the actual drum (Orange County), however it's possible to get it to work without samples. Get a good drum, and tune it. Put the mic in it and kick it really ****in hard. Done. It really is this simple. If the drum doesn't sound the way it needs to sound when it's just a mic to tape, then you need to go back and start over. Everyone says this, but it's not some pretentions arrogence. It's true. I record almost only punk rock. I have a kick that I almost always use when the drummer brings in some pos that doesn't work. I say, here use this. Makes my day easier and the client is happy. I do usually end up with a limiter and some eq and mayyybe a compressor, but not always. But, when the drum is being recorded it sounds pretty darned close to what it will sound like in the mix.

If you already recorded the drums and are trying to make it work in a mix now..then get a sample out, because you're screwed otherwise. The Nofx drum doesn't sound like it's smashed to bits. It has tone and body. If you need to smash it to get it to punch through, it's going to sound bad. The beta 52 is a great mic, but you didn't tell us what drum you were recording, the heads, the beater, how it's tuned, the drummer, the room...which all make more difference than the microphone does in my experience.

Good luck, but I'm just being honest. It all starts in tracking. If you tracked a drum that you didn't think sounded like it needed to, then learn from your mistakes, use drumagogg, and move on. If you're about to track, then I'm glad you asked ahead of time.

Neil

[dontforgetzack]

shit drums. Ludwig (from early eighties, maybe? all the labels are peeled off. But they were made in the US, which is a plus in my book.) clear green plastic shells. 20" kick. And yes, they do look as funny and sound as bad as you can imagine. Batter is a Remo pinstripe, resonant is a black powerstroke with a 5" hole on the right. I'm playing the drums. I've been playing since I was 10, and I turn 24 today. Weird, huh?

Actually I found a pretty good article on "sound on sound." check it out. Worked for me.

[J.S.Vega III]

Originally Posted by dontforgetzack

shit drums. Ludwig (from early eighties, maybe? all the labels are peeled off. But they were made in the US, which is a plus in my book.) clear green plastic shells. And yes, they do look as funny and sound as bad as you can imagine.

Vistalite?

[dontforgetzack]

Actually, the only difference between my set and the second picture is there aren't any resonant heads on my toms, and my rack tom is a honkin 14" son of a bitch. That's eery, I've never seen my set or anything close anywhere else.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by dontforgetzack

I'm a green horn with recording drums. I'm using a Shure Beta 52A (it's cheap, I'm broke). I've practiced and experimented alot with mic placement, and I'm pretty sure I've got that as good as it can get. I want that "Ryan Greene," NoFX, Bad Religion punk sound where you can hear the whole kick cut through the mix. Is it about compression or EQ or what (I've messed with both profusely)? I've carved ridiculous EQ holes, changed heads, beaters, you name it. I've read alot of shit, and I seem to be missing something.

Mind you, I'm recording punk music with loud-ass distorted guitars. If we were dealing with acoustic guitars or a piano or something as my primary accompaniment, I'd have it licked. Help please.

post the drum files. I'll show you

[Goliath|Audio]

SPL Transient Designer, Enveloper, Bittersweet, TransMod, TransX

Take your pick. They will make the kick stand out.

[J.S.Vega III]

Originally Posted by dontforgetzack

Actually, the only difference between my set and the second picture is there aren't any resonant heads on my toms, and my rack tom is a honkin 14" son of a bitch. That's eery, I've never seen my set or anything close anywhere else.

VISTALITES.COM

[Scott Cairns]

I might get shot for this, but you could layer a sampled kick in there if the drummer if fairly tight.

Another idea - make sure the bass guitar isnt competing in the same EQ frequencies.

Lastly, this is a cut paste of an EQ chart I saved years ago;

Kick Drum

Any apparent muddiness can be rolled off around 300Hz. Try a small boost around 5-7kHz to add some high end.

50-100Hz ~ Adds bottom to the sound
100-250Hz ~ Adds roundness
250-800Hz ~ Muddiness Area
5-8kHz ~ Adds high end prescence
8-12kHz ~ Adds Hiss

[drumrec.com]

Originally Posted by dontforgetzack

I'm a green horn with recording drums. I'm using a Shure Beta 52A (it's cheap, I'm broke). I've practiced and experimented alot with mic placement, and I'm pretty sure I've got that as good as it can get. I want that "Ryan Greene," NoFX, Bad Religion punk sound where you can hear the whole kick cut through the mix. Is it about compression or EQ or what (I've messed with both profusely)? I've carved ridiculous EQ holes, changed heads, beaters, you name it. I've read alot of shit, and I seem to be missing something.

Mind you, I'm recording punk music with loud-ass distorted guitars. If we were dealing with acoustic guitars or a piano or something as my primary accompaniment, I'd have it licked. Help please.

"Parallell Compression" is your best friend after u eq bd

Best Regards
Hansson

[Ryan Greene]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

no no no. The nofx kick drum is a sample made from the actual drum (Orange County), however it's possible to get it to work without samples. Get a good drum, and tune it. Put the mic in it and kick it really ****in hard. Done. It really is this simple. If the drum doesn't sound the way it needs to sound when it's just a mic to tape, then you need to go back and start over. Everyone says this, but it's not some pretentions arrogence. It's true. I record almost only punk rock. I have a kick that I almost always use when the drummer brings in some pos that doesn't work. I say, here use this. Makes my day easier and the client is happy. I do usually end up with a limiter and some eq and mayyybe a compressor, but not always. But, when the drum is being recorded it sounds pretty darned close to what it will sound like in the mix.

If you already recorded the drums and are trying to make it work in a mix now..then get a sample out, because you're screwed otherwise. The Nofx drum doesn't sound like it's smashed to bits. It has tone and body. If you need to smash it to get it to punch through, it's going to sound bad. The beta 52 is a great mic, but you didn't tell us what drum you were recording, the heads, the beater, how it's tuned, the drummer, the room...which all make more difference than the microphone does in my experience.

Good luck, but I'm just being honest. It all starts in tracking. If you tracked a drum that you didn't think sounded like it needed to, then learn from your mistakes, use drumagogg, and move on. If you're about to track, then I'm glad you asked ahead of time.

Neil

Hey Neil, the Nofx kick drum isn't sampled. If you have ever seen NOFX live Erik just sounds like a sample...LOL.. That's why its hard to get that sound when you don't have a great drummer like Erik. I think your comment about tuning, heads, ect. is correct. Most of the time its not the mic's fault something sounds bad. Playing and tuning is the biggest problem.
Best regards,
Ryan

[joelpatterson]

Years ago I asked my mentor-guru friend how the #$%@$!! do you fit a kick into a mix, and he suggested dropping out EVERYTHING at 400 Hz, and damn, it worked! How did he know?

[larry b]

Originally Posted by Ryan Greene

Hey Neil, the Nofx kick drum isn't sampled. If you have ever seen NOFX live Erik just sounds like a sample...LOL.. That's why its hard to get that sound when you don't have a great drummer like Erik. I think your comment about tuning, heads, ect. is correct. Most of the time its not the mic's fault something sounds bad. Playing and tuning is the biggest problem.
Best regards,
Ryan

Well there ya go!

I hope the OP read this, its been a while.

I'll comment anyway because i like recording punk music, and im a drummer as well as a studio owner. One thing that helps a kick drum cut through heavy distorted guitars is to use a hard beater instead of a soft one. It starts right there at the hit itself. Head choice, tuning, and drum shell all play a large part. Provided you have your kick drum sounding very "spankey" in the room, i.e. lots of punch plus that great HF slap from the beater, its time to capture that in its entirety for the recording. That's your mission. Well, you're usually not going to accomplish that with one mic stuffed into the vent hole in the resonant head. That will get you the beef, the body, but not the slap or the punch. Instead of going that route, when i do punk music and some rock stuff, i like to do the following:

-place a good LDC mic off the resonant head about 4-6 inches. A C414 is great for this, it can be padded down, and gently rolled-off (especially if youre placing it at 4 inches, its going to need a bit of roll-off). It will handle the high SPL's of a kick drum without breaking a sweat and placed roughly in that position (out in front of the drum) you have a better chance of getting that "punch" sound of the drum instead of the "boom" sound that you get inside of it.

-i will then conver this mic in some way so that bleed from the cymbals and other drums is minimized. I usually do a combination of small gobos and heavy blankets built up into a "tunnel" out in front of the drum with the LDC mic on a stand inside it, right in front of the resonant head. You can play around with mic placement to get vary'ing levels of "boom" or bottom end and "punch" or low-mids. I found a sweet spot on my 20" DW kick about 6 inches in off the rim, 7" from the surface of the head to the diaphragm of the mic, and left of center, about 4 inches up from the middle "diameter" line. Basically in the "northwest" territory of the drumhead. Heh.

-i then place another dynamic mic, or sometimes a SDC on the beater side of the drum, aimed directly at the spot where the beater hits the batter head. A baby little tabletop mic stand is great for this job. A preferred mic for this task is the Sennheiser MD441. But you can also use a 57 with good results.

-Phase flip one or the other of the two mics. I usually flip the LDC or whatever mic i have on the resonant head, and leave the batter side mic in phase, so its essentially the same treatment that the toms get.

-a subkick mic can also work in place of the LDC. If you go that route, you may want to toss a LDD mic such as a heil PR40, AKG D112 etc inside the drum, as a subkick alone can be very boomy.

-Another thing to pay attention to is the phase relationships between the overheads, the snare mic, and the two kick mics. Ive found that for many rock songs and other genres of music, its not critially important to meticulously phase align these mics. Sometimes a little bit of phasing just works for some reason in the context of what you are trying to do. But one detriment to non-phase corrected drum mics/tracks is that the transient hits of the kick and snare specifically, which are two very important rhythmic driving factors of the song can be smeared pretty bad. In a wide open piano jazz song it might not be that much of a problem, but in a very dense, very tight punk arrangement, it can be disaster. The tighter sync'ed you can get your kick and snare transients across all mics present on the drum recording, the better. Luckily, its super easy with a DAW. Just record everything straight up, and after the fact, zoom in and align all the tracks to the snare mic(s). That will really help focus up those kick and snare hits that desperately need to poke through that wall of guitar, and it will allow for less heavy-handed EQ, to get the same effect.

-If you have to go there, a nice 4.5kHz-6kHz bump on the beater side kick mic (especially if its an MD441) will bring that kick drum front and center on the quick!

-avoid compression, or at least overcompressing the drums. This wont help in your quest to get them to punch through that wall of guitars. If you do compress, which can help even the drum hits out (if your drummer is human, hes going to be at least somewhat uneven), stick to just a decibel or two of gain reduction, but with the ratio pretty high, maybe 6 or 8:1 so that leveling happens pretty steeply once the threshold is crossed. Use make-up gain to bring the kick back up, but watch your gain staging, especially if your working with software.

-A trick that you can use as a last resort, or as a creative process/experiment that may or may not yield interesting results is to put a compressor on the bass guitar, and even on the distorted guitar tracks if you are feeling crazy, and then key all of those compressors with a sidechain fed by the kick drum. In Pro Tools, the way i do this is to create an Aux Send on the kick drum track feeding the kick into an internal bus. I then open my compressors on the bass and anything else i want to have "duck" the kick drum. I then initiate the sidechain input on them all, fed from the internal bus that my aux track is feeding into. It will then take some work to get the threshold and ratio adjust so that the "ducking" action is very slight. You cannot overdo this or it will just kill your mix. But with the right settings, you can get that kick drum to punch right out and hit you in the face, while the guitars and vocals continue to rage all around it. If you do it right, the kick drum will almost take "center stage" right along with the lead vocal. It's really neat when it works.

I do a modified version of this on some of the house and other dance music that i work on, where the kick drum beat literally creates a rhythmic pattern out of the bass and synth parts that otherwise wouldnt exist. Crazy stuff. But it works equally well in a dense rock/punk mix, if you set the comps up differently.

Well, after that long rant i really hope the OP comes back around and reads this old thread.

[Emi]

I´m mixing a rock-heavy stuff album these days and as for the kick I use the UAD Neve 88RS (love it) like that:

HPF at 60Hz
Low shelf at maybe 200, -5 or 6 dB (never look at the numbers)
hi-mid at maybe 4K, 5 or 6 dB
hi shelf at maybe 8K, 5 dB

compressed with a 4:1 ratio, med-fast attack and med-fast release

PS: every song can and is different, so I treat it different

the kick was a 22" maybe a sonor (don´t remember) and was miked with a sennheiser evolution series kick mic (don´t know the model) and trough an amek pure path pre

Everyone in the room was: "What a mortal kick sound"

Hope it helps!

[Outlaw Hans]

How do I get the kick to stand out in a mix?

use a beta 52...

Needless to say: I hate that microphone

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by Scott Cairns

Another idea - make sure the bass guitar isnt competing in the same EQ frequencies.

+1

[eascholz]

Originally Posted by dontforgetzack

Actually, the only difference between my set and the second picture is there aren't any resonant heads on my toms, and my rack tom is a honkin 14" son of a bitch. That's eery, I've never seen my set or anything close anywhere else.

Then I'm afraid those are not shit drums, they are in fact similar to the drums that hold arguably the most legendary sound; that of John Bonham. I have an original Vistalite kit too and it makes me happy.

For kick attack, the addition of a batter side mic (as previously mentioned) helps a ton.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Years ago I asked my mentor-guru friend how the #$%@$!! do you fit a kick into a mix, and he suggested dropping out EVERYTHING at 400 Hz, and damn, it worked! How did he know?

yeah - you beat me to it - clean out the mud with HPF's on the other tracks - 400 might be high, but you can dial down from there until it sounds right.

I'd take all your guitars to a dedicated buss (excluding bass) and HPF the entire bus at 400 and keep working your way down until you find a balance in restoring the low end of the guitars while still having the kick punch.

I don't actually recommend using a HPF on a guitar buss, but its a quick way to get the concept. Once you get it, take the HPF all the buss and apply to each track individually as needed.

have the bass guitar muted while you do this.

after you find the sweet spot with the guitars, do the same with the bass (which should now be in the guitars buss) - keeping in mind that as you cut the low frequencies - which carry a lot of weight, you can increase the gain to compensate.

the result is more clarity and less mud in the low end, which can often lead disappearing kicks... it's all about giving everything it's own space in the sonic spectrum.

You may also want to do the above exercise monitoring in Mono - so that you can really concentrate on frequencies and volume.

I'm also assuming you have a compressor on the drum 2buss.

generally speaking a good starting point for mix hygiene might look something like this:

1/2 Drums
3/4 Guitars
5/6 Open (Guitars 2, Efx, Keys, Etc)
7/8 Vox

there's more to it than this obviously - but hopefully this will give you enough to play with and see what shakes out for yourself.