mixes don´t translate, what´s wrong?

[Outlaw Hans]

I use dynaudio bm6a´s in a relatively small room (3x4m) with a couple of diy bass traps (Ethan Winer design). The room is still fairly untreated though.
The biggest problem are low frequencies.
No matter how loud I turn up the bass drum it´s never quite there. After turning it up you can feel it in the mix, but you don´t really hear it defined and clear. Now listening on hi-fi speakers the bass sounds from my mixes are way too loud.
I know I should go really easy on bass and bass drum and turn it down so you only hear it when you really listen for it. But mixing with clients gets me into trouble ´cause they naturally want the bass and kick louder. Another thing I have difficulty with is compressing vocals. I tend to overcompress vocals because some stuff just sounds too sibilant on the nearfields. Differences in volume are a lot more radical on hi-fi seakers as well. So vocal rides I thought were o.k come out too radical and obvious.
The final thing is room sound. I hear more room sound on a normal stereo. I can´t seem to mix in room mics when mixing drums on the dyn´s. So I always just turn them up so that I don´t hear them´cause when I do they´ll be too loud.

I do love the dyns for everything else. I´ve been having some issues with distortion lately and if it wasn´t for the dyns I would have paid no attention to it. Besides I don´t think it´s the speakers since they´re standard reference speakers found in many major studios so they should be fine. It´s just that I don´t hear a big percentage of what´s gong on in the mix until I listen to it in another environment.


Is it the room I´m dealing with?

[Silvertone]

Sounds like a combo of room, level you are mixing at and experience... the speakers should be fine to mix with.

It's a small room so when you turn the volume up to hear bass (because of the size of the room) it's altering your ability to hear it correctly (the bass frequencies are compressing within the room). Also if you mix at the wrong level it will fool your ear.

In the mind, highs, mids and lows all cross over at equal volume (if you will) at around 82 to 84 dB. So get a Radioshack SPL meter and find out where on your volume control 84 dB is. Mix at that level... it should help. No it's not loud enough to hype the clients but it's the right volume to "hear" what's going on. Get use to this volume as it will help you greatly in mixing.

This is the same volume that most movie stage mixers are set at as they have to hear the dialog over the music and sound FX.

Now think about it, if the volume is too low you tend to add high end to the mix as it sounds "muddy", the ear is not hearing the high end correctly. Take it out of the mix room to listen on other speakers and it will rip the cochlea right out of your ears. If the volume is to high (we tend to hear the mid and higher frequencies much easier) and therefore the mix sounds "light" in the low end and you mix in more bass to make it sound right... big problem... you get it out on other systems and bingo, way too much low end.

Also remember that mixing engineers are suppose to mix flat... okay so what does that mean? Well consumer speakers usually have the happy smile curve applied to their crossovers. So if you mix adding high and low end, then it will be exaggerated on consumer speakers. This was one of the first "old school" lesson you use to learn. So you mix flat, don't hype the high end, don't hype the lows... all that will set itself straight post mastering. Again, why do I need mastering... well usually because most people don't adhere to the above information and we get to correct it all at the mastering stage Okay so a little joke there but really it's what we have to deal with all the time. Also as we raise the volume you get to hear the highs come up and get to feel the low end more. A good mastering engineer will retain the balance of the mix but make everything much easier to hear in the mix... this also take the right tools, the right room and experienced ears (and years!)

Hope this helps... experiment, have fun and make that "fun" show in the final product... people are attracted to fun!

[Unclenny]

A good set of headphones helped me with this same problem as my room is less than stellar.

Check your mixes every way possible and make changes accordingly. After a while you will get to know the shortcomings of your mixing environment and you will find yourself naturally compensating.

Lots of insight here:

can you "really" mix in a bedroom?

[Eigenwert]

Hoi Hans

als je iets langer zit te mixen op jouw setup dan zal het beter klopen dat met de tijd. Ik heb in een kamer gewoont van 4x3 meters en het werkte heelemaar niet voor de bass (altijd veel te veel, net hetzelfde). Dan ben ik verhuized, mijn niewe kamer is 4x5 meter (op het moment is er geen acoustik verbouwing in de kamer) - en het is al veel beter nu. Als je al een grote ervaring hebt dan kan het ook eran liggen dat de kamer heelemaar niet geschikt is voor mixing...

[tombuur]

I also have a set of BM6A though I am just a hobbyist.

Like the other poster I check regurlarly with headphones and try to make sure the mix sounds good in both speaker and phones.

Another approach I have tried sending a pink noise curve to the speakers and adjust at 83dB. Then with the same microphone I have recorded the output pink noise from my BM6As, home stereo and PA. All at usual listening distance.

Next with either Voxengo CurveEq or TC Assimilator I can match the recording from the home stereo or PA to the BM6A, meaning I will get the EQ balance from these out of the BM6As. Yes, there is more to translating from one system to another than adjusting EQ curves, but it does give you an impression.

[dhiltonlittle]

Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans

I use dynaudio bm6a´s in a relatively small room (3x4m) with a couple of diy bass traps (Ethan Winer design). The room is still fairly untreated though.
The biggest problem are low frequencies.
No matter how loud I turn up the bass drum it´s never quite there. After turning it up you can feel it in the mix, but you don´t really hear it defined and clear. Now listening on hi-fi speakers the bass sounds from my mixes are way too loud.
I know I should go really easy on bass and bass drum and turn it down so you only hear it when you really listen for it. But mixing with clients gets me into trouble ´cause they naturally want the bass and kick louder. Another thing I have difficulty with is compressing vocals. I tend to overcompress vocals because some stuff just sounds too sibilant on the nearfields. Differences in volume are a lot more radical on hi-fi seakers as well. So vocal rides I thought were o.k come out too radical and obvious.
The final thing is room sound. I hear more room sound on a normal stereo. I can´t seem to mix in room mics when mixing drums on the dyn´s. So I always just turn them up so that I don´t hear them´cause when I do they´ll be too loud.

I do love the dyns for everything else. I´ve been having some issues with distortion lately and if it wasn´t for the dyns I would have paid no attention to it. Besides I don´t think it´s the speakers since they´re standard reference speakers found in many major studios so they should be fine. It´s just that I don´t hear a big percentage of what´s gong on in the mix until I listen to it in another environment.


Is it the room I´m dealing with?

the low end is a tough thing to get a a hold of in a mix sometimes. you suggested that you are just turning them up and expecting to hear something different. all that is going to do is make the problem louder. there are a number of things you can do to get the bass and bass/kick drum to work well together. i'd start by applying eq to each and make sure you are leaving space for one in the other. compression can be you're best friend in this case too!

ps. i mix on my bm6a's almost exclusively. i reference on ns10s/auratones/headphones also. it's really a matter of first, learing how to tame/control the low end. then learn your room/speakers.

you'll get there! thumbsup

[jchadstopherhuez]

mixing is an illusion.

making things seem bigger, lower, deeper, brighter...etc...than they actually are.

it takes ALOT of time to figure it all out.

when thinking about bass and kick drum specifically...remember that both instruments not only have low end...but mids and highs. the later of which often contribute to those instruments "sticking out" of a mix.

another thing to keep in mind is that instruments "solo'd" from a mix do not necesarily sound great by themselves...yet FIT into a mix...i.e a kick drum may have more top end than you think it should to poke out of a dense mix...a bass guitar may have a fundamental around 60-80 hz....but also has a presence up higher in the mids.

in addition...your room, your speakers, and your technique are all factors that will contribute. 20 thousand dollar speakers in a bad room will sound like crap. period. the acoustics of your room will GREATLY affect everything you are hearing...and thusly affect your decisions on levels, eq, etc...etc.

there are just too many things to discuss to fit into a thread on a message board.

there is no simple answer.

unfortunately...it takes time and effort....its a process.

good luck,


best,

jchristopherhughes

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by moracspace

More bass trapping is needed.Im quite sure!

Exactly, as always. You can never have too many bass traps, especially in a small room.

--Ethan

[Steffmo]

Well...maybe. the fact is because of either bass absorption or perhaps phase cancellation you are not hearing the bass which is in fact in the mix.

How do your favorite CDs sound in the flat?

Try to A/B mixes you are familiar with your mix. It they sound very similar in the room but boomy outside then you are generating sub sonics in the mix what the Dynes cannot reproduce, or that the room is absobing. Probably the first. Try to high pass the instruments that might have that much lo information. You SHOULD find that you can cut up to 100hz or even higher without really changing much of the sound. Or you could try the same at the masted fader.

Bass is always a challenge, often even in good rooms.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Steffmo

It they sound very similar in the room but boomy outside then you are generating sub sonics in the mix what the Dynes cannot reproduce, or that the room is absobing.

Just to clarify, a lack of bass at the mix position is not caused by the room absorbing bass. It is caused by the walls reflecting bass and creating nulls. The rear wall behind you is often the worst offender.

--Ethan

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans

with a couple of diy bass traps (Ethan Winer design).

You rest your case.......

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by allencollins

You rest your case.......

And just when you seemed to be getting less needlessly provocative...

[A LaMere]

Originally Posted by allencollins

You rest your case.......

hahahhahahha...

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by allencollins

You rest your case.......

Have you ever built one? They actually work quite well.

[logic108]

Make sure the DAC in your soundcard/audio interface is good. I used to use the MOTU Ultralight and switched to an Apogee Duet and noticed a big improvement.
I know people say it can't be done but I switched to a headphone monitoring system using the SPL Phonitor. My mixes are more accurate and translate well. I switched because I couldn't get my room acoustically as I wanted it and didn't trust my monitors. I've noticed an improvement.

[Outlaw Hans]

Thanks for the input guys. I've tried listening to my hi-fi setup in the same room today and where I had major bass sounds in the other (bigger) room it was the same thing in my mixing room. Even with your head right in front of one of the speakers! Besides everything sounds a lot more diffuse in the mixing room. I can't seem to really get a grip on what's coming out of the speakers.
I mixed a song in the box some time ago. A very dense mix. After a while I got really tired of it and moved the protools setup to one of the guys house to mix over there. he has a large room, untreated. But it made a huge difference to the mixing progress. Sadly I can't just take my MCI out with me.
I need more basstraps and will make more of those as Ethan's design works quite well. The only problem is that it's a monumental room and i can't just screw basstraps in every corner.
Well, hell. There's gonna be a basstrap wherever one fits.

[fossaree]

This is what helped me to get better translation along my dynaudios and ns10s

;-)

[Outlaw Hans]

jeez...what about digging up corpses..? This here's an old thread from way back. Anyway: It was all in the room. Working on it...working working I'll keep working ' long as my two hands are fit to use.

[rack gear]

I reference mixes from at least three different places I know.

It's really helpful to get used to listening to your music, as well as commercially released music in several environments to have translation references.

also bass is probably the hardest thing to dial in accurately on project/home set ups. although there is one major producer I work w/ I had to ban from using a sub woofer in his studio because nothing translated outside of his (very high end ssl) room.

for me it's some combination of the following, outside the studio (and in no particular order):

- car
- video editing suite/system
- home computer w/ cheap sub and satellites
- office computer "decent" speakers
- ipod