how do you PAN??

[eligit]

especially now that i am exploring the wonderful world of stereo micing (or a combo of "right up close" and "further back"- maybe wrong to call this "stereo") on a single source i am starting to really wonder:

where do people tend to pan stuff? it gets messy fast. (and yeah i'm still figuring out how to really get the whole phasing/mic placement thing together- learning tho).

sounds silly i know. when using a close mic and a distant one i find that panning them exactly to the same spot w/ the distant mic substantially lower in volume seems to work well. when i pan them apart things get cloudy.

and then i have also read the post on relish (great thread btw) in which it is stated that everything is either hard right, hard left or dead center.

now that i'm attempting this whole 2 mics on various sources thing the panning issue is more crucial than it was with single miced sources. one minute it sounds like messy crap and then when panned a certain way the sound opens up...

any revelations?

sources:

el git
acoustic git
perc
elec bass (not applicable i guess)

no vocals.

[max cooper]

I notice that I pan my drum overheads closer together than hard right and left, it tightens things up. Last mix I did I ran the drums in mono until the chorus, the I separated them a tad. I've been trying to place my overheads further apart when possible so that the drum 'image' isn't so spread out when I pan hard right and left.

Mono makes more and more sense to me every day.

[TYY]

I tend to like things hard panned (L, C, R). The whole practice of panning each track into its own "position" in the mix doesn't make sense to me. It just makes a wall of sound and tends to make the mix sound narrower. I think to get a wide sounding mix, you need a strong center.

I think drums should NOT be too wide sounding. The vocals bass and drums need to be in the middle of the mix for me. I like only a little width on the drums. Lately I really like a mono room mic and wide spaced (recorderman style) overheads panned L/R. The room mic is compressed pretty hard and is up louder than the OHs. The room gives the center and body (along with the kick and snare mics), and the OHs are just brought up to give a little space to the kit and sheen to the cymbals. You could also do this with a mono OH and stereo room mics I suppose.

With a strong center, you can avoid the whole "wide mono" sound. Pan guitars hard L/R as you see fit. My advice (which I'm sure I read on this board) is to FREQUENTLY check your mix in mono. If panning is needed to prevent problems in the mix, the mix still needs work. Checking in mono will reveal many problems that you may THINK you can fix with panning. If the mix sounds great in mono it will have great SPACE in stereo.

My 2 cents.

[Drumsound]

A close and a far mic is not really stereo. It is two points of view on the same source. I think with the technique you are using panning the two mics together will be best for about 90% of what you record. If it were me I'd probably just commit those two mic to one track and not have to think about it later.

[bobby yarrow]

My new reference is the new Aimee Mann record -- I try and pan nothing like that. Have you heard it? Kind of a natural vibe, but on half the songs the kit is spread 180 across the whole soundstage, and on the other half the kit is on the right side and the keys on the left. In the car, the latter group sound like you got a bad seat at a club . . . like, right in front of the keyboard amp.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

A close and a far mic is not really stereo. It is two points of view on the same source. I think with the technique you are using panning the two mics together will be best for about 90% of what you record. If it were me I'd probably just commit those two mic to one track and not have to think about it later.

i should have been more clear. for some tracks i am doing the above but i am also doing plenty of regular stereo as well (one mic on the ac bridge, one on the 12th fret etc etc).
i guess i like having the 2 tracks for the "one close/one distant" thing so i can play with the balance a bit as things develop. maybe this will change tho.

anyway thanks for the tips. strong center and hard l/r. sounds like a good basic concept with some room for messing around here and there.

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by djui5

This is standard for things like rock/pop/etc etc.

Well, yes and no. It's about the little nuances that get you a strong center channel and a nice wide image. For example, overheads that are too wide really can weaken a strong rock song.
My advice (and what I do myself constantly) is listen to what the master AW does and learn from that.

Lately I tend to pan a lot center, drums need to be strong in the center and take up less than 50% of the width. Guitars are often hard L/R and little earcandy pops up between center and outsides... Also, I like to compress the center harder than the rest.

Good luck,
Dirk

[TYY]

Originally Posted by DirkB

Well, yes and no. It's about the little nuances that get you a strong center channel and a nice wide image. For example, overheads that are too wide really can weaken a strong rock song.
My advice (and what I do myself constantly) is listen to what the master AW does and learn from that.

Lately I tend to pan a lot center, drums need to be strong in the center and take up less than 50% of the width. Guitars are often hard L/R and little earcandy pops up between center and outsides... Also, I like to compress the center harder than the rest.

Good luck,
Dirk

GREAT POST!

This is exactly what I believe (and what I was trying to say in my previous post).

[Hautzy]

Originally Posted by eligit

i should have been more clear. for some tracks i am doing the above but i am also doing plenty of regular stereo as well (one mic on the ac bridge, one on the 12th fret etc etc).
i guess i like having the 2 tracks for the "one close/one distant" thing so i can play with the balance a bit as things develop. maybe this will change tho.

anyway thanks for the tips. strong center and hard l/r. sounds like a good basic concept with some room for messing around here and there.

If your using stereo micing ,try using phase inversion to your advantage. i.e. if you pan your overheads hard left and hard right, then flip one of the two out of phase, it will cut out a notch in the center of your stereo field. the brawback is that in a summed to mono situation you will get some nullage. but you can compensate with a room mic track. this is just an example, you can use it on anything you want. I personally like this technique with BG Vox. You will have to play with this alot but it is worth a shot to see if this unclusters your mixes any.
-Hautzy-
www.spectralrain.com

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by Hautzy

if you pan your overheads hard left and hard right, then flip one of the two out of phase[/URL]

eek

[Umlaaat]

Originally Posted by Hautzy

If your using stereo micing ,try using phase inversion to your advantage. i.e. if you pan your overheads hard left and hard right, then flip one of the two out of phase, it will cut out a notch in the center of your stereo field. the brawback is that in a summed to mono situation you will get some nullage. but you can compensate with a room mic track. this is just an example, you can use it on anything you want. I personally like this technique with BG Vox. You will have to play with this alot but it is worth a shot to see if this unclusters your mixes any.

is inverting phase on BG vox the common thing that people do?

What does that do?
What happens if you have bg that are stacked, 3-4 part harmonies, 4 takes per, panned all over the place?

[Hautzy]

Phase inversion with hard pans works by creating a null point where the phantom image resides. as long as it is a true stereo track, there shouldn't be any phasing issues except at center. If you remove the Phantom image through phase inversion, it will create a notch in the center for your lead vox, kick, ect. I cant really speak on if it is common practice, but I have used it on projects with tons of BG and Lead Vox and it has produced favorable results for me, however it does take quite a bit of expierimentation to get used to the idea. Panning any way but hard left and right for the phased stereo track is very tricky due to the inhearent properties of equal power and phase cancellation. I would say that you should, in the case of multiple BG vox, only use this technique sparingly, i.e. use it on the BG track that conflicts the most with the lead vox. Hope this helps, REMEMBER- this is just something somebody showed me that I found Works well in centain applications BUT ALWAYS sum it to mono to make sure the resulting missing audio wont destroy your mix. I would say, just play with the idea and draw your own conclusion.

[Sounds Great]

I have been listening for this a lot lately on all my my favorite (old) records.

One thing that isn't being discussed is the effects. If you put something at 10:00 but have stereo reverbs/delay/ambience, it is really no longer just at 10:00.

I have been noticing a lot of mono reverbs and delays are what make some of these older records sound so good. It really helps clear things up, giving each instrument and voice much more definition and clarity. Things some to blend together better. Rather than a giant bowl of mush.

Try putting an instrument at 10:00 and adding a mono reverb in the same position.

[TYY]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I have been noticing a lot of mono reverbs and delays are what make some of these older records sound so good. It really helps clear things up, giving each instrument and voice much more definition and clarity. Things some to blend together better. Rather than a giant bowl of mush.

Excellent point. It is very common in the 60s, 70s to hard pan a guitar WITH its reverb to the same side. Whether or not the reverb came from the amp or was added later, I don't know. Having a stereo reverb on a hard panned guitar not only brings the image inward, but can also muddy everything up.

You have to make up your mind about how you want something to sound. You can't make a track sound "big" and "focused" at the same time. I think a wide mix comes from having focused sounding tracks panned hard. Keep the BIG stuff in the center.

[jho]

Whatever works. No rules. Different is cool, unique even better. If it sounds good it is good.

thumbsup

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by TYY

You have to make up your mind about how you want something to sound. You can't make a track sound "big" and "focused" at the same time. I think a wide mix comes from having focused sounding tracks panned hard. Keep the BIG stuff in the center.

Yes, everything can't be everywhere at once. I have been guilty as anyone. Drums across the field. Stereo guitar. Stereo keyboard. Stereo bgv's. A big bowl of mush.

Stereo really happens with seperation. I am starting to think of this as a baseball field. Position and distance. Drummer at short stop. Bass at 2nd base. Lead guitar on 1st. Maybe rhythm guitar at third. Bgv's in right field. And if you plug all this into your rack of stereo effects, it just smears the field. For changes in the lineup, maybe more stereo effects on whoever is up to bat, to make that track temperarily stand out more. And bring em' in closer. But you will still hear the other players at their positions backing things up.

[smk]

This is a damn good thread!

[studjo]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I am starting to think of this as a baseball field. Position and distance. Drummer at short stop. Bass at 2nd base. Lead guitar on 1st. Maybe rhythm guitar at third. Bgv's in right field. And if you plug all this into your rack of stereo effects, it just smears the field.

could anyone please explain this one in soccer language?



Jo

[JohnnyTooLoud]

Forwards = vocals, drums, bass, snare

Wings = each guitar (for me OH left and right)

Midfielder = background vocs, keyboards

Defenders = pads, ear-candy

Goalie = Room Mic, Reverbs

Something I've been doing lately in rock-based music is to pan all the drums Center but push the OH out to 8/9 - 3/4 o'clock.

Keeps the power for the drums but adds a nice stereo feel to fills.

Mix to taste.

---Giovanni

[eligit]

what if there is NO singer? what is your panning like then?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by eligit

what if there is NO singer? what is your panning like then?

Whoever is soloing at the time takes center stage, but not necessarily. Sometimes it is nice to keep them in position, just step up to the mic a little closer.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Whoever is soloing at the time takes center stage, but not necessarily. Sometimes it is nice to keep them in position, just step up to the mic a little closer.

no i don't mean a solo in a tune, i mean in instrumental music where the instrument "is" the lead singer.

guess just put em in the middle would be the obvious choice. and if it's multiple mic-ed pan all the mics to the same position and fool w/ the balance between the mics for eq...

or not. i think there are quite a few nice jazz piano records where the multiple mics on the piano are spread out in the field a bit....

which wouldn't work as well in a dense rock mix....

[ron florentine]

My panning perspective seems different from most of the post I ve read here.I tend to do alot of close/distant miking on the same source. One area not being addressed is volume and panning postion......I tend to fish out my position with my close mic ,then create width and depth with my distant mic..........I might put my close mic gtr at 10 oclock and put my distant source mic at 8;30 but maybe just a third of the volume of the close mic to give it a touch of depth and width .....I will do that with different instruments.......or have a close mic piano at 10;30 and just a touch distant mic at 3-4 oclock to make it sound like it is natual and organic with the same room. I tend to use much less verb and to my ears its sounds very natural. There is always a few elements in the mix that are are only closed mic and no verb to bring focus to those elements.I rarely pan a single source hard left and right unless i am going for a massive wall of gtr sound or to really have an primary element take on the character of the tune being mixed.I have not mixed in the hard left /right /center mode for many years.........As an experiment i have some of my own mixes coming up....i am going to do a few with the old left /right/center method......I may come back to this post saying I see the light now............Great post !!!!!


Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio