M-S (mid-side) recording in a small room? Matrix? - Page 2

AnthonyRochester · 29th September 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer Mark

I'm doing M/S with two C414s. The resulting stereo recording is much louder on the left than the right.

Figure 8 mics aren't always equally as sensitive on both sides of the mic. I don't know how condensors like the C414 are but a lot of ribbon mics sound different on the 2 different sides..

Hammer Mark · 1st October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corran

Yes, and then what results is M+S on the left and M-S on the right. So you had doubled the M mic as well and panned them hard left/right?

Yeah, that's what I did. I still haven't returned to that test to make the correction and hear the difference, but I expect all to be well after that.

seaneldon · 1st October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by beebay007

Figure 8 mics aren't always equally as sensitive on both sides of the mic. I don't know how condensors like the C414 are but a lot of ribbon mics sound different on the 2 different sides..

Actually, most ribbons sound the same front to back...or at least they're SUPPOSED TO. The back, of course, will have inverted polarity from the front which will make the back sound QUITE different. Only a few ribbons are purposefully voiced differently front to back (Royer R-series, Crowley & Tripp Naked Eye, AEA R92...) when you account for polarity.

If the two side tracks differ in amplitude, are you sure it's not because the sound source was heavier on one side than the other? If you're positive it wasn't...the capsule of the 414 is inconsistent from front to back and it shouldn't be. If the sensitivity ain't the same on both sides, the mic will not create multiple polar patterns properly.

DesertDawg · 1st October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

If the two side tracks differ in amplitude, are you sure it's not because the sound source was heavier on one side than the other? If you're positive it wasn't...the capsule of the 414 is inconsistent from front to back and it shouldn't be.

FWIW, I've found 414's to be just about the most accurate in commonly-encountered mics when it comes to front-to-back "delivery" in either Fig-8 or Omni patterns. So yeah, all else being equal, I'd be surpised to hear if a 414 did not have equal tone or sensitivity in that regard.... an exception could be a 414 that has been used a lot on vocals, and which as a result is in serious need of a cleaning on the front side, since regardless of consistent pop-filter usage, over time you're still gonna get some - errr, buildup.

judah · 1st October 2008

I always put up an MS setup in my room for drums (using two T-Bone RB500). My room is about 8x5 meters and I really like what I get. Putting the mics at about 8' or 9' from the kick drum, rack tom height.

Regarding the decoding, if you're on a DAW with no external mixer, it's just a matter of duplicating the side mic and flip the phase on one. If you on the other hand use a mixing board just split the side mic to two channels and flip tha phase switch. The more side the more spread. Fully mono compatible.

Enjoy.

Hammer Mark · 2nd October 2008

I've corrected the matrix and still have the same issue: with the three channels (M, +S, -S) at the same level, the +S side is about 12 dB above the -S side. With M muted, +S and -S are identical -- as they should be. It seems that phase issues cause M to positively interfere with +S and (understanably) to negatively interfere with -S. Since none of this is counter-intuitive and since listening to the polarity-reversed tracks panned to opposite sides makes me a little dizzy, I'm left wondering how this method can be used effectively. Anyone?

Morlock · 2nd October 2008

Hammer Mark,
On the input of a M/S matrix you have Mid an Side channels.On the output-Left and Right....NOT three channels.

RCM - Ronan · 2nd October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer Mark

Should it be +S on the left, -S on the right and M up the centre?

Yep.

Corran · 2nd October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morlock

Hammer Mark,
On the input of a M/S matrix you have Mid an Side channels.On the output-Left and Right....NOT three channels.

If you are matrixing yourself in a DAW by duplicating the S channel, yes you do!

Morlock · 2nd October 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corran

If you are matrixing yourself in a DAW by duplicating the S channel, yes you do!

Absolutely!I just didn't read carefully and thought that he's putting M+S on the left, M-S on the right plus M centered.Anyway...my mistake.
I'm really curious will the result be the same if it's ran through a decoder plug-in or hardware M/S matrix.And if yes why it happens so.

1st October 2008	#35
judah Lives for gear Joined: May 2006 Location: Spaghettiland Posts: 881	I always put up an MS setup in my room for drums (using two T-Bone RB500). My room is about 8x5 meters and I really like what I get. Putting the mics at about 8' or 9' from the kick drum, rack tom height. Regarding the decoding, if you're on a DAW with no external mixer, it's just a matter of duplicating the side mic and flip the phase on one. If you on the other hand use a mixing board just split the side mic to two channels and flip tha phase switch. The more side the more spread. Fully mono compatible. Enjoy. __________________ It must suck to live with such a shitty attitude... DIESEL 24062 Laboratorio di registrazione sonora

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2nd October 2008	#36
Hammer Mark Lives for gear Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 962	I've corrected the matrix and still have the same issue: with the three channels (M, +S, -S) at the same level, the +S side is about 12 dB above the -S side. With M muted, +S and -S are identical -- as they should be. It seems that phase issues cause M to positively interfere with +S and (understanably) to negatively interfere with -S. Since none of this is counter-intuitive and since listening to the polarity-reversed tracks panned to opposite sides makes me a little dizzy, I'm left wondering how this method can be used effectively. Anyone?

2nd October 2008	#37
Morlock Gear maniac Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 159	Hammer Mark, On the input of a M/S matrix you have Mid an Side channels.On the output-Left and Right....NOT three channels.