Protools HD studio mic pres and tracking gear only(world class sound) Are we there?

Guys I put in alot of thought before upgrading my mix system to HD. and as you all know I bit the bullet and moved up. As I think about how folk are now willing to invest 100Gs in icon controllers for HD, I wonder if we are "There" yet sound wise. I've noticed several major artists who were not willing to have their audio touch mix systems are now comfortable with mixing on HD systems. Since the DSP in an Accel system embarasses most any mix system from before I wonder if we are "There" yet.

I remember looking at lexiverb in digi partner catalogs and thinking, (u wont need a lexicon now because you have it itb) Then I actually heard it and knew that we still needed lexicons.

However today's plugs seem alot closer to the dream (I welcome opinions on this). Today it seems the eventides sound like eventides, the Api sounds like API, the 2016 sounds like a 2016. (though in none of these cases are they identical to their predacessor, they are at least comparable now.) Is this a sound assumption? Is this what major studios investing in icons are betting on?

If you are a qualified engineer(please dont make this about a good engineer being able to mix with tin cans, and a kool aid pack if necessary). With a few choice pre/compressor chains. Have we reached a point where you can acchieve world class results with the following pieces alone? If not what would this engineer lack? What would be considered extra or Laignappe?

I ask you.

HD accel 4
Digi 192,(or Apogee rosetta/or x series/ or prism or whatever converter u consider hi end)
the following plugins (and whatever others I leave out.)
URS everything
MC DSP FILTERBANK
UA COMPS N Eq
TL space
Eventide Anthology
2016, revibe
echo boy/echo farm
WAves Diamond bundle

[Johnny B]

In a word "No."

The A-to-D and D-to-A converters still suck, they all need significant improvement.
This is where the biggest weakness is--- in the 'verters.

The next biggest weakness are in the formats.

All the DAW sogtware can stand much improvement as well.

So in answer to your question, "We ain't 'THERE,' at least not yet."

We need more applied science, more experiments, more R and D all using a "Multi-Disciplinary Approach."

OTOH, maybe some guy working all alone in his basement will find the golden key that solves all the sound quality problems with digital.

YMMV.

[RoundBadge]

No,no and no..the mixbuss alone is still shite compared to a good console..Although some of the weird plugs are super cool..and some of the EQ's/comps have improved and are very useful.. I'm not dumping all my outboard for so so simulations anytime soon.Still amazing for editing/comping though. stike

[themaidsroom]

book a day in a great studio with an excellent class a board and a well maintained
studer with a 16 track he******* - record something
listen to some mercury living presence recordings on mint vinyl through a fantastic
playback system

although i'll be hated for saying this, after hearing the above two examples, if your
ears tell you that we're even close to there, i would suggest thinking about career
alternatives....

Is it possible to get there? proper tracking gear was included in the list. So say we add whatever your external summing unit of choice is. Are we not there as far as eq, but close as far as ffx? What would be required to get there short of a SSl J9/Studer 24trk?

Other than simply saying NO, give me some comments

[Jules]

Digital recording is a skill that I belive is worth investing time in learning.

[T_R_S]

Yes for me - look at all the big studio closures! Look at the Price of 24 tracks and Digotal 48 tracks within weeks of HD coming out.
In 1980 a Studer 24 track A80 was about $100K you no longer need to fork out that kind of cash to get a quality recorder.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Jules

Digital recording is a skill that I belive is worth investing time in learning.

I think that that is very true, combined with the fact that new music will eventually grow to embrace the "digital sound" and evolve in to a new specie that no longer will live under the shadow of the "great analog era"...in fact...I think that in the most healthy future, both formats should coexist, and if we value tools, for whatever they do, we must be free to use them as needed.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Yes for me - look at all the big studio closures! Look at the Price of 24 tracks and Digotal 48 tracks within weeks of HD coming out.
In 1980 a Studer 24 track A80 was about $100K you no longer need to fork out that kind of cash to get a quality recorder.

That's a good point. There's really no excuse for people to be whining excessively about digital when a good analog recorder can be had for peanuts.

-R

[themaidsroom]

i would agree that pro tools / digital is a good tool - i myself would never choose it
as a recording medium
but i would never ask someone to not record because
of technology

i suppose the question must be asked - what are you after?

the benchmarks in these times are surreal and psychotic - the music that is celebrated
in any commercial sense is for the most part horrible - despite the dozens of accolades,
etc that the media and public relations firms bestow upon it - in almost any other decade the musicianship, songcraft soars beyond this one
sonically - it is almost possible that you could walk into someone's home and hear
higher fidelity 50 years ago how sad to spend months of 12 hour days working on a record so that it can heard in mp3 format - like wearing gauze over your eyes as you
walk into the metropolitan museum of art.....

in terms of the digital world winning, they have won - the only place this could be questioned is in the arena of audiophile playback where, i think vinyl still rules

the world will continue to embrace what they are fed. how nourished do you want those people to be? even if its thankless? even if it does not involve further remuneration? if you personally want great sound, i, in my humble opinion, would say its a great time to buy a tape recorder. sounds jump out at you
even with shitty mics. the stereo field is huge... i got my first new quantegy reel
yesterday...............
granted, i only use the standard
192 boxes, but even at 192 i have never experienced sound like tape - it shrinks -
the invisible tentacles that were swimming around the room before the transfer go
away......

as far as it being a lucrative endeavour . i am poor. my studio lets me eat a little bit of
food. i sleep in a small room in the back...

but if you're after something where you're right there - no single object has brought me closer to right there than my tape recorder - and you are crazy enough to spend hours on maintenance, and are not afraid of having no life, than get a tape recorder.......

[thethrillfactor]

NSSLY,

I hate to say it but the answer is still no.

I've yet to hear a record that was done all in the Box that has led me to think otherwise.

And we are going on seven years now where people have committed to the all in the box approach.

Why is that?

I really can't say.

This would be a topic for another thread.

[alphajerk]

i still hear a LOT of OTB/analog rekkids done that get SMOKED by ITB projects.

I Honestly dont think we are there yet either. But I'm interested more in what folk think needs to happen than simple yes/no answers. Many think that going to higher sampling rates will do it. I disagree. I think 44.1/48k is fine for what we wish to achieve. INFACT it is achieved every day by folk on ssl consoles and mix plus/HD rigs.

How much progress then have we made. Can we sell our ffx but keep the console? can we keep the outboard/ffx but sell the tape machine/ console? Have we progressed? Have we simply accepted a lesser standard? And if so why do we continue to buy gear? Are we all Nutz? LOL Where do we need to go next as professionals in our craft. Have the advances in technology saved us any money? I think so We are in an era where an SSL console/2" studer/and a ptools rig can be had for under $120Grand. This was never possible before. Is this progress?


There's something beautiful about recording a properly tuned piano with decent mics and any pre amp. Now we are in an age where this seldom happens and there's ivory, mach 5 gigasampler etc...have we gone backwards in the name of progress?

If we agree that we are not there, then wtf would anyone invest in an icon?

[Kenny Gioia]

Are we there yet? No.

Will we ever be there? Absolutely not.

Were we ever there? Of course not.

Do we really believe that when Neve finished their 80 series that they thought they were done?

STuder? SSL? API?

Some mythical finish line. It doesn't exist. It never will. By design. You are always supposed to want more. Always. More, more, more.

It's like cutting the number 1 in half as many times as possible until it reaches zero. You keep getting closer but you never hit zero.

Enjoy the ride. There is no finish line.

Besides this fact, you can't reproduce the hard work that goes into designing a real console with software. It goes against nature.

It's like the difference between walking on a treadmill and walking around your neighborhood for an hour. One is designed to take in new experiences and the other is designed to avoid them.

The best things in life are free. A close simulation costs a fortune!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

No,no and no..the mixbuss alone is still shite compared to a good console..Although some of the weird plugs are super cool..and some of the EQ's/comps have improved and are very useful.. I'm not dumping all my outboard for so so simulations anytime soon.Still amazing for editing/comping though. stike

And still few can hear a diff in A/B comparisons....

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Produceher

The best things in life are free. A close simulation costs a fortune!!!!!!!

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Guys I put in alot of thought before upgrading my mix system to HD. and as you all know I bit the bullet and moved up.

I'm into my first week completely ITB. I did as you've outlined, I sold off my beloved Sony DMXR100 mixer and replaced it with a digi 96i I/O ( 16 analog ins for synths), an Apogee Rosetta 800, an API 3124 mic pre and an apogee Mini DAC; with the leftover change, I upgraded my monitors to a pair of Dynaudio BM15A's.

I'm still getting used to the new setup, but thus far, it's an ergonomic dream for me, I'm a composer, so having everything under the hood is so convenient; my synths come in on aux's (with access to any plugs), my API and Summit pres are wired right into the apogee 800, a patch bay makes the rest of the I/O really flexible and I've got line ins and hi z on my pre's, the only thing I haven't done is reintroduce my lexicon effects boxes into the system.

I do have an additional 8 digital I/O available on my 192 I/O (digital), perhaps a system 6000 or an eight channel Eventide would interface nicely.

I may add, at some point, a small, high quality line mixer, something like the Tonelux seems nice, I do like having the option of bussing out some stems for easy access.

ed

[oudplayer]

It's like asking when the computer will be developed that never becomes obsolete and doesn't require yearly processor/memory/hard drive/operating system upgrades.

When we had Commodore 64 computers (competing with the likes of Atari 800s, etc.), the idea of a megabyte of system memory was like a distant horizon of unlimited potential. Now, overclocking geeks pee in their pants with the prospects of 90nm die processes and upgraded hypertransport memory controllers. But computers still don't do everything we want them to do and we haven't yet thought of most of the things that computers will be used for in 10 years time, even in the comparatively small world of audio recording.

The economic production model of "flexible accumulation" depends upon a constant stream of upgrades, "improvements," "features," and a constant cycle of obsolescence. Until we move into a new economic paradigm, nothing will ever be "good enough."

True our journey is never complete. But we seem to be running in place or backwards now.

One of the best things I've ever heard was the original tracks from Diana Ross's UPSIDE DOWN. (I may still have the dat). A friend of mine was working on a remix. He had the original instrument tracks separated as parts on DAT. Listening to the Guitars, Trombone solo etc... was a thought provoking experience. Since then I've fought to get the same sound at times. Now that I look back I know what I heard and liked was the combo of tape compression/Neve EQs/1176/La2As. With that said. and knowing that this was a better sound are we not moving backwards?

Why should a person buy a EL FATSO for a few Gs when what He really wants is a Studer 820? And cant a decent recorder can also be purchased for a few Gs?

WTF? Ok true a protools rig cannot achieve the desired results alone today, but couldnt the 100k spent on an Icon be better spent? Would it not make more sense to get 60Gs in outboard gear/summing system and save 40Gs?

IS it not safe to assume that anyone willing to pay 100grand for a protools controller believes he will get good results out of protools? Or does a fool and his money really part in this case?

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by pegleg

It's because the majority of musicians I have met, talked to, and/or worked with have been duped by the marketing that 'digital is better',...

No it's because I can say to my clients I can fix that ... Is it better to splice tape to edit or do it on a computer ?... I have been recording for 25 years and I hope I never see a razor blade (other than one on my face) next to a piece of tape again, syncing up muliple machines to get more tracks, thousands of dollars on tape, ... No Thank-you! Been There Done That!
It's not that's it better sounding it's just easier I can edit thousands of times and always be on the first generation never haviing to dub to another machine because the tape is so worn out.
If tape was so great everyone would be using it and nobody would by protools or what ever. I remeber AES's back in the 80's there were tape machines everywhere but the big crowd was at the NED Synclavier room. The music business has always been technology driven in 1967 The Beatles used an 8 Track, In the 1970's Led Zeplin used 16 and 24 tracks, In the 1980's Micheal Jackson used Syclaviers, and today it's the DAW.
Progress will never stop and someday consoles, tape machines and musical instruments may well be in the Smithsonian ... remember they all freaked out when Bob Dylan played an electric guitar instead of his acoustic. And that didn't turn out all that bad. Capturing memorable music is not about the gear it's the talent behind it when your the musician, the producer or the engineer, your a part of that particular moment in time to capture that performance. Having all that nice gear to use is just a bonus.

[eligit]

if you think about how crappy digital recording was only 15 years ago i find it hard to believe that in 10-15 years the best A/D D/A and best plugs will be so good that while it will not be the same as a studer tape machine and racks of analog eq and comps it will be just as good in it's own realistic clean quiet easy to edit way. that sweet analog "funk" may become a thing of the past tho...not the realism but the warm funk that tape imposes.

if we have lavry/prism etc now in 10 years A/D D/A should be right there...

unless the industry literally stops R+D on improving A/D and plugs....which i agree is possible w/ the popularity of mp3 but i don't think this will happen

and that sonalksis comp sounds pretty nice.....in 10 years it will be more than pretty nice...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

I Honestly dont think we are there yet either. But I'm interested more in what folk think needs to happen than simple yes/no answers.

What needs to happen?

Better engineering period.

Look people said the same thing about SSL when they first got started.

In seven years(80'-87') the SSL Jedi's had emerged led by guys like Bob Clearmountain,the Alge Bros, Andy Wallace and many others.

SSL listened to these guys and made improvements.

SSL became accepted and is now sort of a standard.

What helped ease the transistion was the quality of the engineering.

The only way to learn how to use an SSL was to intern and assist at a studio.

The whole aprenticeship and mentor relationship.

Also you had to prove to your peers that you could "rock it".

Now we have PT which is available to everyone and the mentorship is gone.

Basically anyone can use it even though they really shouldn't.

Digidesign and the DAW manufacturers really don't listen to the pro users and just listen to the bottomn line or what they think is best.

Unless this trend reverses things will continue to slide backwards.

[alphajerk]

what needs to happen is BETTER TALENT. not engineers. the damn musicians. where there ISNT a need to beat detect adn quantize, no need to autotune ad infinitum.

quit worrying about if this will work better than that or which sounds better. in this day in age if ya cant make a good sounding record then its all the drummers fault!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

what needs to happen is BETTER TALENT. not engineers. the damn musicians. where there ISNT a need to beat detect adn quantize, no need to autotune ad infinitum.

I don't when you got started engineering Alpha but the above statement has been going on since the 80's.

The only difference is the tools are in the hands of everyone.

A H3000 in a midlevel studio in the 80's was almost unheard of.

The H3000 was used to fix many a bad pitched vocal.

Every studio i worked in the 80's had either an AkaiS1000 or some sort of sampler(AMS,H3000) to fix or fly the best parts around when things were off.

The technology has always been there.

Now yes we had to go through hoops to fix things.

But it was done and still is.

The problem is that now its become the performance.

We do need better engineers period.

Not novices that call themselves engineers because they own a DAW and a microphone.

[alphajerk]

must be why i like music that predates the 80's and bands who never got the memo that it ever arrived.


"""we had to go through hoops to fix things"""

and that makes ALL the difference.... ease of use results in abuse.

[Duffster]

Originally Posted by Produceher

The best things in life are free. A close simulation costs a fortune!!!!!!!

If the best gear in life was free, plug ins would be useless. Through the advent of programs such as protools, access to the world of audio and the sounds that go along with it have increased 100 fold. Simulation is cheaper, and very cool. I can buy tons of cool simulators of gear I will never be able to afford for the same price of one piece of real gear.

Are we there yet, sort of, and that is as far as we will go. Why? Because there will always be gear slutz that say that Tape, or the vintage recording devices, and SSL consoles just sound better... and because of that digital will never "get there." I LOVE PROTOOLS and have no plans what so ever of ever owning a 2" machine. Everybody bitches about converters and sample rate and........... yes we all know, but still everybody uses it.
For me it is like vintage cars with modern engines in them... You have the look of timeless classic with the performance of a modern technology. Why complain when the two fit together so well.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

must be why i like music that predates the 80's and bands who never got the memo that it ever arrived.


"""we had to go through hoops to fix things"""

and that makes ALL the difference.

Psst...

Sorry to clue you in buddy...

but this was done in the 70's also.

Have you ever pitched down a 24track for a singer who had a limited range and then sped it up to make it seem they sang in key?

How about made multiple mixes because of lack of autoamtion and later edited them together to get the best mixed performance?

Sounds very familiar to me.

The 70's is the era where they really started isolating everything and added the ambience later.

The 70's is where the monotnous four on the floor arrangements came about.

In the 70's they replaced snares(overdubbed).

They overlayed claps to the snares to make them snap.

The 80's just took it a step further by replacing the drummer with a drum machine.

[eligit]

if zep were recorded today (as an unknown act)

they would be beat detected and pitch shifted into sterile nothingness.

there are lots of cool musicians out there. true, there are many bad trends (pretty much all hip hop and pop is empty unmusical crap IMHO) but there is still lots of talent around for the finding even if zep contrane miles and hendrix levels of inspiration and power seem to be absent.

public taste and the industry are pretty screwed right now.

[Johnny B]

Time frame: 5 to 10 years in the digital revolution is a lifetime.

And there is no question that digital editing can be great. But does it not seem that an inordinate amount of time goes into it nonetheless? Some things seem to actually be accomplished faster with an all-analogue system.

Here's what I think needs to happen for digital to one day get "There."

1. The myth that says only 20Hz to 20Khz is "important" needs to be completely repudiated.

2. Really accurate measurements of the musical instruments need to be made. So far, a pipe organ has been measured producing programme down as low as 8Hz, and cymbal harmonics have been measured at over 100Khz. (See Boyk)

3. Once you know the outer limits of the harmonics and tones, the highs and the lows, produced by musical instruments, you can begin to design or overdesign 'verters to handle what's been measured.

Let's say you have some harmonic at 130Khz, while it may have some kind of not well-understood interaction on the other lower harmonics when played in a live performance, or some kind of interaction on the brain or body, you will not be able to re-create whatever is there because ALL the 'verters are simply too primative.
In any event, you cannot repoduce what occurs in nature with existing 'verter technology.

4. Much more attention needs to be placed on the low end, the low end seems to be relegated to an "orphan status," and yet, that may turn out to be where more attention will yield the greatest results. IOW, the high's get all the ink, but the lows seem to be ignored.

5. More time, energy, and money need to go into applied science, university reasearch, and R&D. The body and brain's reaction to sound at various frequencies needs to be an integral part of these efforts.

6. All people, all over the world (esp. those making their living from recorded music) should keep screaming "bloody murder" until the digital 'verter designers make improvements.

7. We WILL see more improvements in digital sound quality in the future...but we have to keep yelling and screaming that existing products are simply not good enough.

Funny thing to observe, some people are going back to analogue and new ones are being recruited to analogue on a daily basis.

Some are taking the approach not to go near digital until the very end of the process.
Why?

Because digital's sound quality still sucks, that's why.


YMMV

[alphajerk]

hey man, i dig "electronic" type stuff too, have quite a bit of it in my collection..... when pauls boutique came out, that was some SICK abuse of samplers. and all of miles stuff was heavily edited together... so was hendrix's stuff [flipped and reversed and stretched out the door], but that shit was COOL. so there is something from the 80's, the 70's, and the 60's... but they did it to push envelopes and be CREATIVE, and now the ease of technology only facilitated malaise. sure you got guys like BT who will spend mind numbing hours on very short sections of a song, to good effect? or shit like aphex twin, or even DJ shadow with just a turntable an a MPC.


but the simple fact is TODAY, with even the most modest of setups... you have what you need to make a great recording. i HAVE heard killer recordings done by a guy with a computer and a $100 mic. is it sonic perfection? well that would be in the ear of the beholder now wouldnt it? does it make yer booty move? shit yeah.

point is, the tools matter VERY little in the end except to simply execute an idea. no ssl yet asks, "With a few choice pre/compressor chains. Have we reached a point where you can achieve world class results with the following pieces alone?"

i say yes. go out and make some glorious music. make it move people's emotions. i hate to use Q as an example here [sorry dude, dont mean to single you out but it was the first example that popped into my mind], but he sent me an album he did entirely ITB with older versions of that and it rivalled anything done otherwise sonically. IT CAN BE DONE.

so the question isnt is digital there yet... its are you there yet? and is the band there yet? if you have those two, i think that a proper album can be[and has been] made.