Help with Drum Sounds

[GRiFF]

Hey y'all,

I've been in my new studio for about 4 months now and have slowly been moving over from programmer to engineer since I have a drum room.
Generally I think my understanding of miking kits is adequate, if not hugely experienced. I've a decent mike kit, the Audix series is proving to be a reliable, solid - budget solution with regards to the kick, snare and toms. My problem though is mostly the room sound, kind of tinny, and using overheads 2x414s into AMEK CIBS, is pretty unsatisfactory, seems all I end up doing is winding in tin, or more precisely short, harsh reflections, the result if I do use the overheads is a slightly hollow kit, very roomy despite keeping the 414s reasonably close in.

A neighbouring engineer seems to think the room itself is not that bad and should improve once I start damping down the walls with curtain material and some acoustic tiles.
My query is, are there any suggestions from anyone that I can use in the meantime (I've minimal budget for the treatment at this time)
I'm wondering if I should just leave out the overheads for now and go for a close mike setup - can I employ the 414s to better use?

Also, even though I've followed the traditional route of mikeing hats and ride pointing away from the snare/toms situated near by, I still get huge amounts of kit spill, I don't get a truly useful independant hat or ride.

I'm sure many of you know what I'm going through at the moment, can you tell me what you learned that ended up making the most improvement to the sound?

cheers in advance
GRiFF

[chrisgraff]

However frustrating, trial and error is your friend.

Here's a short video-clip regarding hi-hat leakage:

http://www.audioinstruction.com/page/page/1497433.htm

Hope it's useful to you.

[GRiFF]

Since browsing other threads I've seen a few discussions on overhead treatments, namely hi passing at around 500hz, meaning cutting out the bottom end right? Rather than the top (sometimes it gets confusing as the terminology for lo pass and hi pass often get used to describe the other and vice versa).
Also, I've been compressing the overheads heavily, which has worked pretty ok, tho, of course while providing energy, does also make the drum sound trashier still.

I didn't find any examples of Room mic treatment. I have a U87 setup a couple of feet in front of the kit, standing at about 5/6ft, I guess the idea is - experiment, but I'd like to know what iare often reliable placements.

Additionally, what do you do with the room mic, eq wise, compress wise? Should I be cutting the bottom out of this? compressing as heavily as the overheads?

[andy_simpson]

Since you said the room sounds awful, I can't imagine why you'd want a room mic up there! (Least of all a u87, if the room's bright and harsh).

You could try putting some absorbant foam pads clamped on stands, behind/above the 414s to remove the room reflections from the equation somewhat, that'd improve their rear rejection......which should get you a less roomy/'hollow' sound.....

I would spend a couple of hours trying all your mics as overheads and seeing which ones actually sound the best in the room.....you can reject alot of room with some mics (dynamics for example).....

Andy

[Punchmo]

Which pattern are you using on the 414's? How far above the kit? Are you using an X/Y setup or split? If split, how far apart and where are they aimed? Answers to these questions may help address the issue.

[AdAudioInc]

Try the 414's on toms in figure 8 to get both rack toms - and then use the single 87 as an overhead - an option that has worked well for me in the past.

[carlsaff]

Try placing (ideally taping) a cardioid condenser to the floor in front of the kit, as far from the kit as possible, pointed at the kick. Better yet, try two matched condensers, spaced far apart on the floor in front of the kit, both aimed at the kick. Check for phase alignment and hard pan them in your mix.

At least try it. I don't think a room mic suspended in the air will do much for you, but you might be surprised at the nice slapback you can get from condenser mics on the floor used as ambient mics, even in a "bad" room.

[GRiFF]

Thanks everyone,

Did anyone have any specific processess for the room mic in the mixdown? Do these tend to get any treatment or does it generally work best keeping it completely natural - unlike the o/heads?

[GRiFF]

Originally Posted by Punchmo

Which pattern are you using on the 414's? How far above the kit? Are you using an X/Y setup or split? If split, how far apart and where are they aimed? Answers to these questions may help address the issue.

Can someone explain what an X/Y setup is, I've my thoughts on what this is, but if it can be cleared up plain and simple, I'd appreciate that.

[carlsaff]

Originally Posted by GRiFF

Thanks everyone,

Did anyone have any specific processess for the room mic in the mixdown? Do these tend to get any treatment or does it generally work best keeping it completely natural - unlike the o/heads?

I prefer completely natural, unprocessed signals for both overheads and room mics. Just watch for phase issues and balance.

But that's me. I'm not one of those "compress every signal in the mix or DIE" guys.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by GRiFF

Also, even though I've followed the traditional route of mikeing hats and ride pointing away from the snare/toms situated near by, I still get huge amounts of kit spill, I don't get a truly useful independant hat or ride.

I'm sure many of you know what I'm going through at the moment, can you tell me what you learned that ended up making the most improvement to the sound?

Sure - don't expect to get an independent hat or ride. It's that simple. 90% of the time, I don't even have the hat mic up when I mix - I'm getting plenty through the other mics... And I'd suggest that you raise and angle the ride cymbal (look at some old pictures of Steve Gadd's kit - the ride is way high up. Steve's thinking in those days was that the engineer would only spend about 30 seconds getting a drum sound for the jingle session, and that was the easiest way for the ride to be audible in the final mix.

[Punchmo]

Originally Posted by GRiFF

Can someone explain what an X/Y setup is, I've my thoughts on what this is, but if it can be cleared up plain and simple, I'd appreciate that.

Check this site out. If you want more, google microphone techniques. Hope it helps. http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall...techniques.php

[Drumsound]

Super cheap thing:
Get some packing blankets and hang them behind the drums.

Next step, still kinda cheap, much more effective/groovy:
Build a cloud with 1"x4" planks as a frame. Staple in some fabric on one side. Roll is some insulation. Put hooks on the corners. Put four hooks into the ceiling spaced like the corners of the cloud. Attach cheap chain to the hooks on the cloud and hang from the ceiling.