MOTU 24I/O Core Good or Bad ?

[StarfishMusic]

I got a quick question for you guys.

I got a motu 24i/o and an emu 1820m. I usually use my DBX 386 mic pres dig converter to get into the emu. When I'm ready to mix I use the motu 24i/o to sum on my mixing board. Do you think I might get a better sound just using the 24i/o? Maybe just using the bnc word clock from the DBX to get a better clock? Or do you guys think I got the right idea? Also maybe the emu 120m's converters are the best of all? I definitely notice playback sounds better through it when synced to the dbx though.

I'm also thinking about a Art dig MPA but i don't know if it's converter is as good as this other stuff or maybe it's better? i hope this isn't too off topic but I'm sure a typical use of the 24i/o for alot of people is the mixdown and something else for the recording. BTW both the emu and the motu pci cards are living just fine in the same computer. I just switch the asio driver in nuendo when I'm going to mix.

[staudio]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

That's what I heard too, but the reality has been somewhat different.

What was your conclusion? I put the MOTU below the RME and above the Presonus based on my experience of the products.

[ssaudio]

My conclusion is that in the right hands they are all as capable as each other - and that includes the 'best' converters too.
I've never, ever, had a problem when recording or mixing that I could attribute to an A/D or D/A - drivers, yes, hardware, no
The differences just aren't important to me. I can understand why someone lacking in confidence or experience would want the 'best' or be swayed by reports here and elsewhere, that's entirely understandable. I record and mix other peoples work and the results are never dictated by the converters and I'm always busy - I cannot argue with that empirical evidence

[staudio]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

My conclusion is that in the right hands they are all as capable as each other - and that includes the 'best' converters too.
I've never, ever, had a problem when recording or mixing that I could attribute to an A/D or D/A - drivers, yes, hardware, no
The differences just aren't important to me. I can understand why someone lacking in confidence or experience would want the 'best' or be swayed by reports here and elsewhere, that's entirely understandable. I record and mix other peoples work and the results are never dictated by the converters and I'm always busy - I cannot argue with that empirical evidence

Well said.

[StarfishMusic]

Though i agree with you mostly ssaudio, going by that logic would you use an MXL over a neumann? I agree a good engineer can make anything work, but put up any quality stand alone converter to 95% of integrated audio interfaces' converters, and most people's jaws will drop that they've been recording straight for all that time. Arguing motu vs, m-audio fine, I get it. But Apogee Rosetta or RME ADI-8 vs integrated converters is not even a debate. Do you absolutely need them, no. Are they worth having? My philosophy is that it depends on the price/quality of your other gear in the chain. $3400 mic - $3000 pre - A/D of a $600 audio interface just makes no sense. at least on overdubs and featured tracks that is. Gear's price/quality i believe should usually be relative to other gears price/quality

[ssaudio]

I only play the comparison game for fun with fellow engineers and I can honestly report that the only jaw-dropping that gets done is at the price difference or, very occasionally, the design.

My only criteria are:

• Does it work
• Will it last
• Is it roadworthy

My main point here is that it's all about getting the job done, not theorising about and justifying anything; especially not subtle differences that make little or no difference in the real world.

[StarfishMusic]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

I only play the comparison game for fun with fellow engineers and I can honestly report that the only jaw-dropping that gets done is at the price difference or, very occasionally, the design.

My only criteria are:

• Does it work
• Will it last
• Is it roadworthy

My main point here is that it's all about getting the job done, not theorising about and justifying anything; especially not subtle differences that make little or no difference in the real world.

Record everything with a shure SM57 then. lol It meets all your requirements. Dude anyone and I mean anyone who's been engineering more than 3 months can hear more than a slight difference between a quality standalone converter like Apogee or RME against a cheaper integrated converter like Motu or M-audio. Although the end consumer might not be able to tell for just one track, the cumulative effect of 32 tracks through a good converter is a big deal. Sure I can make great recordings without, and mic placement etc is more important. I can tell quite a quality difference between songs I've recorded with and without, and my customers can too.

If you're someone's asking do you need an apogee A/D to make money in the studio business, the answer is no. Will the end result sound better for it, yes. With your above logic you've described a touring rig. Though studios should have reliable equipment, why then are fairchilds and LA-2s still kickin around? Those people are name brag hungry gear *****s and haven't recorded anything but themselves in closets? Utility is great in studios but ya know sound is kinda cool too.

[ssaudio]

Originally Posted by StarfishMusic

I can tell quite a quality difference between songs I've recorded with and without, and my customers can too

That proves my earlier points nicely, thank you.

[AllAboutTone]

The most so called high priced converters that i have tried out is the Ensemble, they are not worth the bucks, sometimes converters can be so darn clean and i do not mean noise floor that they sound so digital. Thats my opinion of some of the higher end ones. I got a Motu 24i/o today seems to be just ok so far, time will tell.

[ssaudio]

good luck

[AllAboutTone]

Thanks for the input, please feel free to keep chiming in for those who use
the 24i/o

[StarfishMusic]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

The most so called high priced converters that i have tried out is the Ensemble, they are not worth the bucks, sometimes converters can be so darn clean and i do not mean noise floor that they sound so digital. Thats my opinion of some of the higher end ones. I got a Motu 24i/o today seems to be fine so far, time will tell.

an ensemble is not the same as apogee's standalone converters like the rosetta 800 or D/A 16x an ensemble is still has mic pre amps headphone amps and other features which figures into the cost. an ensemble is $1950 street and a rosetta which is just a converter at $2650 street price. It's a different type of product. Though the ensemble probably has better converters than most other integrated into audio interfaces it's probably not the same as whats in a rosetta or AD16x. it's like comparing mic pres in the audio interfaces too when everyone would tell you go with an external. Though a little less necessary it still helps the sound.

[AllAboutTone]

Yeah i never use preamps in a convertor, all external.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by StarfishMusic

an ensemble is not the same as apogee's standalone converters like the rosetta 800 or D/A 16x an ensemble is still has mic pre amps headphone amps and other features which figures into the cost. an ensemble is $1950 street and a rosetta which is just a converter at $2650 street price. It's a different type of product. Though the ensemble probably has better converters than most other integrated into audio interfaces it's probably not the same as whats in a rosetta or AD16x. it's like comparing mic pres in the audio interfaces too when everyone would tell you go with an external. Though a little less necessary it still helps the sound.

Not sure what the higher end Apogee sound like but so far i like the Motu 24i/o over the Ensemble, more width, has a great openness, however the Ensemble does sound good just not as wide.

[conguero]

When my Motu HD192 went down I borrowed a Motu 896 to track and it sucked turtle balls even when clocked to my big ben! When my ensemble came in I wound up retracking the stuff I did with the 896 because it bothered me that much. But, I understand what you mean when you say that the ensemble sounds too digital. It's not actually too digital it's that you are hearing your audio so crystally clear with the apogee that it bothers you. I would track everything (A/D) with the ensemble but, would not D/A everything. The MOTU HD192 clocked to the big ben is awsome (trust me) but it is not as sharp as the ensemble things sound bigger, fatter, and smoother with the HD 192 and more edgy with the apogee. The 24 i is not in the same league as the HD 192 or ensemble but if you clock it to the ensemble it will improve your multitrack imaging about 60%. I like my rhythm steel string guitars to sound sharp so I will D/A with the ensemble to get that glassy sound. If I apply the D/A of the ensemble to say a pair of high blowing Latin trumpets in a horn section the ensemble will make them sound unbearable too edgy and sharp ( like ice picks in my ear drums.) I would use the D/A of the HD 192 to round those suckers off. Like I said before MIX and MATCH BABY!!!

[AllAboutTone]

Well i spent a lot of time with the 24i/o this weekend, my firepods AD/DA sounds much more musical than the Motu 24i/o, i will have to pull my hat of to presonus , for the price they make a very useable convertor, i track and mix all OTB. The motu is built like a tank though but not to keen on the sound.

[imagimotion]

I just thought I would throw my two cents in here. I have used the MOTU gear along with Focusrite Saffire line and Presonus Fireproject. What I can say is they're all in the ballpark. I thought the Saffire was a little more open sounding compared to the MOTU, but overall I think they all can be used to create great mixes. The bottom line is this. I've also done projects using Apogee converters in high end studios and although the converters of high end gear are better spec'd and all that, it really comes down to the CONTENT. If you mix a great song and it sounds great, then it doesn't matter what it was mixed on. The White Stripes recorded to an 8 Track reel to reel for many of their records, and many would say that it is not the highest fidelity recording medium given today's technology. But the end result was fantastic. They sold millions, and people loved the recordings, even though they weren't using the highest end converters for this and that during the process.

I think people really need to get beyond this fallacy. It's not the technology that makes great music. YOU make great music. Use what you have and maximize the potential of what you have to work with. I go by the Joe Meek philosophy - "If it sounds good, it IS good." Don't buy all the hype and noise you hear from gear manufacturers and even gear heads (sorry). It's up to you to decide what works best for you. And in the end everyone is going to be listening to your music on earbuds anyway, so does that extra $2000 - $3000 in high end converters really make a difference for the target audience? I say it doesn't, but the gear makers disagree because they want you to spend $2000 - $3000 on a piece of equipment that magically makes everything "better". Yep, and cell phones arranged in a circle can pop a kernel of popcorn.

[AllAboutTone]

After spending close to a week trying out a 24i/o i decided it was not 4 me, boxed it up and sent it back....its almost like a thin blanket thrown over the monitors........almost.

[hourglass]

Originally Posted by Nishmaster

But really what burns me about it is that it is by far the flakiest piece of hardware I have ever owned. Routinely it will stop being recognized by the PCI card for no reason, and is especially picky about the firewire cable I feed it. MOTU support has never been any help...

While I have no idea what MOTU support said to you in this instance, I suspect they would have told you to use the cable that came in the box with the unit.

I had a similar problem when I started running a 1224 with my 2408mkIII (all through a PCI-424 card.)

What solved it?

Using the grey MOTU cable instead of the random (expensive) firewire cable I had already laying behind the computer.

Keep in mind - the 424 card is not a firewire card. It is similar, but it's MOTU's own execution of the technology.

ryan

[conguero]

The Motu pci interfaces (HD192, 24i, and 2408 mk3) use audio wire it is very similar to fire wire but not the same. Using a fire wire cable with the 424 pci might cause the problems and conflicts you have mentioned.

[thefunkybeat]

I'm not a seasoned pro, but here's my 2 cents...

I use the 24io with a A&H WZ3 for my little mobile recording and mixing rig. I love it. It sounds good, it looks cool, it's got analog i/o for DAYS, it's solid, it's got meters for each in and out, AND it only takes up one rack space! I use it with Nuendo 3 on a PC I put together running Windows XP Pro with service pack 2. Zero problems.

I can't really speak to sound quality as I haven't auditioned a lot of different kinds of interfaces. (Although it is an improvement from my Digi 001.) However... I get the feeling that if you wanted something better, you would have to spend a LOT more money and not hear all that much difference. You might also look into doing the Black Lion upgrade for this interface, but I've heard it costs $600 for the analog upgrade and $200 more for them to mod the clock.