Reverb techniques.....

[TheReal7]

I am starting to mix my my songs and want to add some reverb(s) to the mix. What are some advices and tricks you can suggest? Where should I start? Or some things I shouldn't do. I am using protools and verb plugs, D-Verb and RVerb is what I have.


thanks
scott

[TheReal7]

Aslo what kind of verbs would I use on which instruments and their settings?

[Killahurts]

Well now, a guy who's not afraid of it! Makes my heart soar like a hawk.

I would suggest what I believe are the three most important things: Pre-delay, diffusion and frequency shaping (HPF,LPF, high cut, high damp, whatever).

For vocals, I like to start with pre-delay around 50ms or so, gives a nice space for the vocal so it won't be crowded, low diffusion usually (unless you want 80's pop). I always use the high cut down to the point where sibilance is not reverberated, or not much. And, the low end must be controlled or you'll get mud. A HPF works nicely for me.

Drums/snare- Shorter predelay, maybe I start at 21ms, and usually more diffusion than with vocals, but less reverb balance overall, highs are opened up more, but still got to control all the low end crap.

For me, in rock music anyway, instruments like guitars might get a nice, relatively short plate to give some dimension, but I don't really want to "hear" that reverb, so discretion is important.

Presets don't cut it, IMO. I have always found that I have to tweak verbs differently for EVERY song I've ever done that had reverb.

[TheReal7]

Thanks Killahurts, yes I agree on the presests.. I am not liking any of them so far. Only fiddled with it a bit last night so I will have to spend some time getting to know the verb plug. Still very unfamiliar to me, all the different settings.

My CD is all instrumental... guitar focused. (Satch, Vai-ish) and am looking to add a polish to the over all sound but just don't want to slap one verb over everything.

[bukarin]

If you are mixing ITB, I would definitely recomend getting a convolution based reverb such as Altiverb, Waves IR etc. The presets or impulse responses that come with these plug ins are imediately useable and very realistic and are a great deal better than D Verb!

When using reverb always think about the space you are trying to create and the perspective you want to place the sound in, ie if you want the vocal up front use a very short ambience that is low in the mix or if you want a more washed out sound use a longer plate that is higher in the mix. I really like real room sounds on drums but if you haven't got a great recording room the convolution simulations are pretty amazing. Sometimes mono reverbs help busy mixes retain clarity or some sparse tracks may benefit from a general plate reverb that glues the sound together. Like most things it really does depend on the material you are mixing. Another little tip is to time the pre delays with the tempo of the song, works really well with some things especially if you are using a longer pre delay.

Hope that all makes sense!

Good luck.

ps. you've gotta try Altiverb! RVerb is pretty good though!

[TheReal7]

Thank you bukarin, some good info here ..... could you go into a little more detail bout mono verbs? How I would use them?

Thanks

[bukarin]

In Pro Tools you would create a mono aux track and insert a single channel reverb plug in. Send what you want to the reverb and then take some time to pan around the return until you find a sweet spot for it, stereo reverb returns cover the whole sound filed from left to right where as a mono return is a single point and can be moved within the stereo field. The mono return will allow you to move it away from another source to prevent masking etc or create an area in the stereo field which can highlight a certain sound, you can of course pan the return to the opposite side of the source that it is being fed from and create some intreresting stereo effects. Just experiment really, I don't think that many people use this mono technique but it really is a winner on some things.

Don't forget to add some effects to your reverb returns too, a little slap delay can be cool, and of course compression can help out a great deal with drum room type reverbs.

take it easy!

[thethrillfactor]

My advice would be stay away form the plugs and rent some choice hardware units.

They add much more color and dimension to sounds than the plugs.

My 2 cents.

[bukarin]

I definitely here what you are saying Thrill, but do you not agree that the convolution based reverb plug ins are light years ahead of any other reverb plug ins. I'm personally a big fan of analog reverbs, springs, plates and of course real rooms, I don't think many hardware units can capture the character of such sounds without using convolution. Hardware reverbs do definitely still have their place in the studio, but I have definitely seen a massive trend away from them even in big mix rooms with plently of tasty outboard verbs. I haven't used a 960L so I can't comment on that but I do have a fair knowledge of most of the other standards, I really like AMS RMX16 for digital verb and of course the classic PCM70 and PCM60, been digging an origianl 224 recently too, nice and crunchy!!!!

[Tetsujin]

just a "me too" on the new IR-based reverbs
- Altiverb (Mac only), Waves IR (tons of real sounds & an entire CD of Lexicon too, plus access to a lot more on their site, once you've shelled the bucks) & don't forget the new Wizoo HDIR plugin, W2 - some very nice noises coming from that one.

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

My advice would be stay away form the plugs and rent some choice hardware units.

They add much more color and dimension to sounds than the plugs.

My 2 cents.

agreed.
i have a waves verb that i use to love until i started using a lexicon box, no comparison.
plus, using a reverb box i don't have to worry about the cpu hit i take by using high quality software verbs, specially when you start using several instances of 'em.

peace!

FM

FM is the Batman to your Robin.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by bukarin

I definitely here what you are saying Thrill, but do you not agree that the convolution based reverb plug ins are light years ahead of any other reverb plug ins. I'm personally a big fan of analog reverbs, springs, plates and of course real rooms, I don't think many hardware units can capture the character of such sounds without using convolution. Hardware reverbs do definitely still have their place in the studio, but I have definitely seen a massive trend away from them even in big mix rooms with plently of tasty outboard verbs. I haven't used a 960L so I can't comment on that but I do have a fair knowledge of most of the other standards, I really like AMS RMX16 for digital verb and of course the classic PCM70 and PCM60, been digging an origianl 224 recently too, nice and crunchy!!!!

All the convolution reverbs to me lack character and size.

They to my ears are skinnier than the TC reverb offerings which to me are the skinniest sounding hardware boxes.

With that said i do use from time to time the Altiverb Cello room 1 for synth/sampled strings.

It definitely helps bring them to life.

And if could find one cheap enough, i would pick up the Sony machine with the same sampled Cello rooms(i love this unit) for the same purpose.

To me a great mix with excellent dimension and depth is one that combines different units, lots of hardware reveb units and maybe one or 2 analog units.

Throw in some delays and you got something.

Massive move away form hardware units?

I don't know about that.

I collect efx and my efx racks are ever expanding.

And i have noticed on Ebay the price of the used hardware units have gone up.

Look at how much a 480L is now on the used market.

Same for a Quantec QRS.

[bukarin]

Maybe not a massive shift, but definetly people seem to be patching aux sends from the console into aux tracks in tools and running the waves and Altiverb reverbs live. I personally work like that and find it very powerful. I would probably always use a 480L if there is one in the room but I don't think they cut it for real room simulation.

Peace!

ps. I'm currently on a mix session in a room with several outboard units (RMX16, PCM70, PCM60, H3000SE, Lexicon 200, Ursa Major, 2x SPX90) and a top engineer. NONE OF THEM ARE TURNED ON!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by bukarin

ps. I'm currently on a mix session in a room with several outboard units (RMX16, PCM70, PCM60, H3000SE, Lexicon 200, Ursa Major, 2x SPX90) and a top engineer. NONE OF THEM ARE TURNED ON!

Again to each his own.

It really comes down to the style of music and production.

I use everything "plus the head and tail"if it will make a mix work.

Sometimes i might use one unit for everything.

It depends.

Those are real character pieces in the rack that tend to stick out.

You need a couple of pieces that just blend.

Its like putting together a winning team.

You got your all stars and your supporting players.

And on the bench or in the bull pen you got your specialists that do one thing well.

A great mixing studio has a nice balance of all three.

Basically so you can handle any job given to you.

[bukarin]

Couldn't agree more!

Have you got any cool reverb ideas you'd like to share or general hints?

ps. I forgot the Klark Technic DN760 in the rack, another character unit!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by bukarin

!

Have you got any cool reverb ideas you'd like to share or general hints?

ps. I forgot the Klark Technic DN760 in the rack, another character unit!

Yeah i have a couple but its very dependent on the genre,production,arrangement,etc.

If you do a search i've posted some ideas in the past.

Its hard to give advice without listening to the mix.

Is the production live or does it have sampled/synth sounds?

Is it a mixture of both?

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by TheReal7

I am starting to mix my my songs and want to add some reverb(s) to the mix. What are some advices and tricks you can suggest? Where should I start? Or some things I shouldn't do. I am using protools and verb plugs, D-Verb and RVerb is what I have.


thanks
scott

If it's your first mix experience (sounds like it) I'd say start with what you have (the plug-ins). First thing to learn IMO is trying to get a good balance between dry vocal and reverb return. Try to create a space around the vocal/instruments and switch the reverb return on/off to get a feel for what it's doing to your tracks. Try not to use too much...

Once you get the hang of it, you'll probably notice that the plug-ins aren't giving you the magic you hear on commercial releases. That would be the time to look in some hardware units. The Kurzweil Rumour is dirt cheap and has some top of the bill plates and rooms in it to start with.

Good luck,
Dirk

[raal]

Originally Posted by bukarin

I'm currently on a mix session in a room with several outboard units (RMX16, PCM70, PCM60, H3000SE, Lexicon 200, Ursa Major, 2x SPX90) and a top engineer. NONE OF THEM ARE TURNED ON!

if he's not using the RMX16 or Lexicon i'd have to suspect he's not using reverbs on his mix! i have a 480L, AMS, TC 5000, Eventide, etc. etc. and if i use verbs, the 1st 2 i usually go for are the AMS (snare) and Lexicon. the only plug verb that iactually like so far is the sony - but i ain't selling any of my other boxes because of it, that's for sure.

i once bought a dynacord DRP-20 from GC of all places, which i love on vocals! it's a little noisy but really, one of the nicest verbs i've heard.

[TheReal7]

Awesome info everyone, I really appreciate it .... gonna try some of the things mentioned here and hopefully get some good results.

[chuckj]

Jack Joseph Puig when he was a guest moderator answered a question about use of reverb. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically stated to minimize or eliminate your use of "stereo" reverb returns on a unit. It can have a tendency wash out the mix. He suggested that you add a separate left/right return with two different units from your send. You know if it's in JJP's bag o' tricks then you have to try it.
In PT I just run a multi-mono plug on the aux return. "Unlink" the left and right channels and set up two different settings. It really does make a significant difference in clarity. I almost never use a stereo return any longer.
As a side note, I'm a relatively newbie here and it's picking up tips like that from moderators and fellow gearslutz that make this such a great forum. Thanks Jules!

[chuckj]

I had a little voice inside my head that said "Are you sure that was Jack Joseph Puig as the guest moderator?" Oops...turns out it was Dave Pensado.
And just to make sure I wasn't going completely nuts I searched the archives (probably should've done that before) and I found this.....



Use Multiple Reverb Plug-ins
Pensado follows the same "stereo logic" when using numerous instantiations of reverb plug-ins. "Instead of panning it hard left/right at the returns, just open up several versions of [Digidesign] Reverb One with the same preset open in each, then alter one or more slightly. Set one at hard left, pan the next one hard right, and experiment with decay times and reflections and such. Now you've got a really great stereo reverb, and when you pan and mix between them you create the definite perception of a really wide reverb."

[Jules]

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

They to my ears are skinnier than the TC reverb offerings which to me are the skinniest sounding hardware boxes.

What do you mean skinny? I guess as in not fat? I have an M3000 and I don't know about that. It has a ton of sounds and pretty realistic. Especially the shorter ambience sounds and delays, which I have been leaning more and more toward.

Not as good as my (2) R-880's though. They rule.

[TheReal7]

Thanks everyone for all the tips. I have applied them and I am getting great results....very happy


this place rocks thumbsup

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

What do you mean skinny? I guess as in not fat? I have an M3000 and I don't know about that. It has a ton of sounds and pretty realistic. Especially the shorter ambience sounds and delays, which I have been leaning more and more toward.

Not as good as my (2) R-880's though. They rule.

The M3000 to me is very bland almost vanilla.

Sometimes you need bland to just blend in the background.

But when dealing with vanilla i pass.

I did like at times the M5000 and M6000.

Also the M4000 has a couple of nice patches.

The M2000 to me is a waste.

The R-880 is on a different hemisphere.

You got 2?

I have one and but i have all the cards for it.

The George Massenberg/Roger Nichols card is a must.

My R-880 has been stuck on the snare plate from this card for 3 months.

[raal]

Originally Posted by chuckj

Use Multiple Reverb Plug-ins
Pensado follows the same "stereo logic" when using numerous instantiations of reverb plug-ins. "Instead of panning it hard left/right at the returns, just open up several versions of [Digidesign] Reverb One with the same preset open in each, then alter one or more slightly. Set one at hard left, pan the next one hard right, and experiment with decay times and reflections and such. Now you've got a really great stereo reverb, and when you pan and mix between them you create the definite perception of a really wide reverb."

kewl chuck. the previous bit on using two different hardware boxes for left/right also sounds like fun...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

kewl chuck. the previous bit on using two different hardware boxes for left/right also sounds like fun...

This works best with 2 PCM 70's and 2 SPX 90's.

[edIT]

you know I like plugs and i like hardware. I have and Eventide H-8000 and the 2 ch. to 5.1 verb presets are insane. even though I only mix in stereo. I send tracks to the 2 to 5.1 patches and bring the returns back on 6 channnels and the results are incredible. depth and space like you wuld not believe. however i ahve used Altiverb and I'm a big fan of that too. emagic's Space Designer is a great one too. Plugs and hardware both have their benefits it's all a matter of what you are going for, what your budget is and how slutty you want to get with it. I man I have heard people mix ITB with plugin verbs that smoke mixes done with the most expensive Lexicon and TC System 6000 stuff. It's all subjecive use your best judgement.

[C.Lambrechts]

The trick with verbs in music is .... hmmm ... how should I explain this ?

To put as much on as possible without actually hearing it. Does that make sence ?

Anyhow, the ONLY reverb plugin that even comes remotely close to hardware in that very aspect is the Eventide reverb plug. Convolution stuff is a complete disaster when it comes down to that and there are a couple of plugins out there which are pretty ok for that. Revive and Reverb One for example. I hear good things about the sony's but I haven't tried that one yet so I can't judge.

Now, in the hardware world that's where Lexicon boxes rule. Sound wise there are definately other options like TC and Kurzweil aand Eventide of course.


I mentioned music, because there is definately a difference when you're doing post for example. I can understand the convolution excitement for those people. I do the occasional post thingies and that's when I appreciate them (a little bit at least)

nah ... if you're serious about reverbs you should look at some hardware imho.

[Boby Stoica]

Here's a way to make it even wider:

I tend to record the reverb - PCM 70, twice,on separate tracks. Pan them - hard or not so hard - PCM70 has only analog in/out, so the 2 reverb tracks will differ slitghly from conversions/ analog stages on my DMX R 100. You can always alter one's setting, as stated above. I do a mono group channel, where I send equally amounts of the 2 reverb tracks in, and switch the mono group's phase with a plug (like Tools One vst) by 180degrees. Blend to taste - so your dry vocals remain centered and focused, and the reverb spreads on the sides, being out of phase in the midlle field. Of course, you need 100% wet verbs, to keep the dry vocals on level.You can compress that group, so the out of phase verb will be more consistent, you can (at least in SX) delay with a few offset samples one of the reverbs, you can EQ that group so - let's say, the out of phase center reverb misses all the highs, and kkep the highs on the reverbs only on the sides.

Of course, this can be done (at least in SX) by switching the panner to dual, but making a group out of the verbs gives you more control out of it.