DAMN IT I AM SICK OF....

[jdunn]

[Edit] Sorry, I just meant the answer was pimpy, not you (Fletcher). You're probably right anyway. Didn't mean to derail this thread. My bad.

Back to the og topic.

It's entirely possible that the converters are the problem. But if this was a Soundcraft Ghost micpre, well? Analog tape is going to do all sorts of things to the signal that makes guitars sound good, while digital is not. So you really need to run through something like a Chandler TG2 to get more character before hitting the A/D.

Have you tracked the guitars to tape and then transferred them into digital? That might help too.

I have heard some pretty nice guitar sounds from the HD24. Were they "great" guitar sounds? Maybe I wouldn't go that far. I will say that I've heard some huge acoustic guitar sounds coming off that thing.

Now that I think of it, some of those tracks may have been recorded through a Panasonic Ramsa DA7 console, not the HD24 converters. Maybe that's why I thought the HD24 sounded alright.

I'll have to check on that. Party on Garth.

[Edit]

jdunn, if I may ask an obvious question, have you hung out with your buddy with the HD24 to see what he's doing differently when recording guitars? If you have access to someone who records guitars that you like the sound of, it seems like he'd be a good place to start.

-Rick

He (Michael 'Gus' Agostinelli) is an experienced engineer who used to work at several Hollywood studios. He's tracking in a 20'x20' rehearsal studio space with a high ceiling, pretty dead walls. Marshall 4x12 cabinet w/ Fender head, a Showman maybe? Also a Fender Hot Rod Blues De Ville or Deluxe or something like that.

For mics he likes the Beyer M500 special edition for sure. I'll find out what else he was using on those tracks. He's got an Audio Upgrades modded Neumann U89 that sounds really good. And some cheap Mogami mics too, so it may be more about the guitar/amp/room combo(s) than anything else.

Oh yeah, he tracks pretty freakin' loud. A lot of cats say that you just can't get that low end air that makes womens' panties flap without cranking up the volume.

What about using one of these splitters to run through 3 amp heads at a time?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Andy Wallace on a Mackie will mix circles around me on anything but Andy Wallace on an API or Neve board will mix circles around Any Wallace on a Mackie. Don't kid yourself, the gear is important and that is just a fact of playing the game.

Or Andy Wallace on an SSL which is what he mixes on.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Or Andy Wallace on an SSL which is what he mixes on.

I thought that was the case but I didn't want to start the SSL flame session that would follow..



I figured API and Neve was a safe bet to keep on topic....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I thought that was the case but I didn't want to start the SSL flame session that would follow..



I figured API and Neve was a safe bet to keep on topic....

Don't worry i won't tell.

[mount helikon]

take your 421 (i like audix d4 for this) bhind cab to catch reversed low end. place 57 in front of cab. depending on micing distance, you may have to reverse the phase on these two. As stated before double or quad track the 57. In addition to this set up a stereo pair, either an XY or Mid-side, 3 ft back in middle of the room your tracking in. 8 tracks total. This is not an ameteur technique. It can be total phasing nightmare, so be sure to take your time with it. If you can get it all working together with the right HP and LP filters, it's the ultimate metal micing technique. Sometimes it can overpower the rest of the mix so don't track it too hot. Compression to tape is also critical. It's an art, not too much not too little. If youre goin for a fat meaty sound tube compressors, or some emulated plugins (like ik media's t-racks) are perfect. For clean or accoustic guitars, I personally like optical compressors. Make sure you set attack and release times well cuz, once it's on there it's on there, pumping compressor and all. Yet another take is to break a single track into 3, and pan them out Left Right and center, and drop the Left tracks pitch a couple of cents, and raise the right tracks pitch a couple of cents. Eventide has several offboard units that do this with great ease. It is also a good trick for vocals, and bass.

[Twisted Tones]

In addition to the sonics (different mics/blends, guitars, amps) be sure to look at the parts being played...four passes of the same part will sound like four passes of the same part, whatever you do.

One simple and powerful thing is: Say you're tracking some basic power chords (root, fifth, root). Try two passes of that and then two more passes playing the same chords but with a fifth-root-fifth voicing, putting the bottom fifth BELOW the original root of the first two passes, pitch wise. The result of this is that the bottom interval is actually a fourth. Hard to describe, but lets say that, for instance, that you're playing a C power chord (3rd fret on the A string, fifth fret on the D and G strings). On the 3rd and 4th passes play that chord same C chord as 3rd fret on the E and A strings, 5th fret on the D string. Same notes, but the intervallic relationship is different and it can add a crushing bigness to the track. This can work as a method thru a whole song, but it's even cooler when used to make certain parts extra special.

If that doesn't make sense then just poke me with a stick

Peace,
Dan

[Lindell]

analog summing...... a.k.a console...

[robocop]

try this,

record to 3 tracks.

trk-1

favorite amp and gtr with a cad e100 Supercardiod or 57, but Supercardiod is key.
amp should be loud and clean. then big muff that sucker. but keep the fuzz mild.

trk-2

double track with les paul thru the same amp but with major distortion from big muff.

trk-3

any ****ing gtr you want going thru a pod or digitech like box with mid to pretty heavy distortion, just blend to taste. if you can have a different gtr player play the 3rd pass it would be better.

now the key to this all:

trk 1 pan left, track 2 pan right, track 3 flip the phase and pan around until you find your happy space. this track should not be super predominate in the mix but relevant enough to create a dimension for the gtrs.

try it, you may find some-other tricks along the way.

[bjornson]

I find it kind of funny that there's been only one response offering any musical or arrangement advice to accomplish the goal.

[max cooper]

I was just about to mention what Twisted Tones said; change the voicings of the parts; invert 'em, put the fifth on the bottom, etc.

I have some alternate tunings I use for that kinda stuff.

[gainreduction]

When mixing, if you spread out pretty much all the tracks, nothing will appear as especially wide since everything is out on the sides. If you keep most of the stuff closer to the middle then whatever you pan hard LR will sound wider.

[DirkB]

My experience has been that two nicely played dirt guitar tracks panned hard L/R will give me all the width I need. The issue though is "nicely played":
start with a quality amp and cab, make sure the guitarist right hand (if he plays right handed) is doing what is necessary and after that it shouldn't be to hard.
I personally love the R-121 into a TG2. I gets a little bit more air around the sound than a SM57 and is easier to position. The TG2 add's some harmonics in the midrange which help to get a nice creamy sound. Too much highs can also start to hurt, lot's of the time I notch out or roll of some high frequencies to kill some of the "digitus".

Oh, and don't use too much gain on the amp.
And a nice, "tightly centered" bass sound also helps to contrast the width of the guitars, same goes for the drums. Listen to AW's mix of Chevelle's "this type of thinking...", you'll get the picture.

Greetings,
Dirk

[rewt_]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Okay, I'm not looking to start anything w/ Fletcher, but I expected his reply to end with something like "Yes, most people feel that electric guitars just sound bigger on analog tape than digital". So the 'buy more gear' answer sounded a bit dealer-ish to me.

I love how this post comes up in response to almost everything Fletcher contributes these days. The guy sells gear, we get it. Predictable as you think his posts may be, at least they're entertaining, and hey -- even pretty informative sometimes. Responses like this one are just pretty stale.

FWIW I don't feel like by someone agreeing that analog-tracked guitars might sound wider than digital, they're sending a giant invisible hand through the internet to take out my wallet and redirect my browser to mercenary.com. So it's funny to see everyone jumping on the "he's a pimp, don't trust his response" bandwagon.

I realize that you apologized, so this isn't pointed at you. It's just an observation on what seems to be the sentiment of a lot of people lately.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Saying something will improve your sound is not the same as pimping it.

Yeah...what the world needs is a box with a couple of XLR I/O's (and maybe digital) which improves clarity, punch, focus, transparency, presence, and gives a wider soundstage and allowing for a truer translation to other systems.