Gtr Amp out in live room player - in Control room or out by amp?

15th July 2002, 01:49 AM

I like to coach the players by having them in the same room as me, I dont get much argument. However I just bough this cool amp as reccomended by our esteemed moderator M.Wagener, an Engl Savage 120 Special Edition..

Responsiveness seems real cool with the amp.

So! How about speaker cab to gtr 'reaction' and playing responce??

Discuss please..

Michael, do you get up to any special tricks?

Obviously feedback is difficult....

With the youngsters I work with I kinda have to stand over them with a baseball bat to get a whole "good gtr track" down!

I DO FEEL that my 'go ahead, excite me' / positive energy towards the overdub - with me in the same room as the musician IS a plus point.. but some might disagree!

I look forward to coments on this issue greatly!

**mwagener** · 15th July 2002, 03:51 AM

Jules,

congratulations on the ENGL, it will rock your world.

I normally keep the amp in the control room, in a place from where I can hear the control room monitors fairly well, so I can make changes to the sound of the amp listening through the microphones. Also, IMHO it's better to have a short guitar cable than a long guitar cable and a short speaker cable (especially with a powerful amp like the 120). I hate talkback switches and the communication with the musicaian is very important. If you do need feedback, have the guitar player touch the cabinet of your control room monitors with the headstock of the guitar, but don't let him anywhere near the actual speaker for obvious reasons. In cases of severe feedback, you might want ot put him in the live room for that part of the recording.

Have fun, can't wait to hear the results

alphajerk · 15th July 2002, 04:27 AM

personally i like them in the room WITH the speakers. there is just a sensation being live in the room that is impossible to feel in the CR. plus, ME as a guitarist, i dont want anyone breathing down my neck during the take.... its fine if you stop the take and make a comment but i like my space while its rolling. plus, you are likely to get knocked in the head with my guitar if you are too close.

and NEVER let the guitarist sit down for a take when doing rock and roll, for folk/****ry type shit, thats fine... but when the amps turned up they need to be standing up.

i really need to get a PA system to blast at them instead of the can method. like

full on... to 11.

as i was sitting in the rehersal space of my new project, that feeling you get of all the vibrations through your body. it connects your body with the music and vibe. and all those molecules pulsating in the room is what connects the instrument with everything else.

i do takes in the CR and while its nice to do that method especially when recording myself because all the controls are there, the takes i get in the live room has so much more power to them... im even known to record myself and hit record, run into the live room, put on the cans and strap on the guitar REALLY quickly waiting for the count in and then go.

if i have them in the control room, the amp is in the control room too.

vsl666 · 15th July 2002, 04:44 AM

grggt
yeah i just noticed that if i turn my amp up tp 12 (yes it does)
and my speakers up as loud as i can and then ROK as hard as i still can given my advancing years then i get no splill ...

which is nice ...

gtr player out in other roon suks as the poor dear feels all left out cast out or whatever ...and a miserable confused gtr player
whilst nothing new makes 4 a bad take ..

yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy

Jay Kahrs · 15th July 2002, 07:12 AM

I've done both in the last week. Whatever is going to make the player feel better and add to the songs. If they want to play loud and use lots of feedback and stuff I'll let them hang in the room with the amp so they only blow themselves up and spare me. If that's the case I'll setup a 57 on a stand and run it through a compressor and back to a channel on the console for talkback. If you have enough spare tracks it can also be cool to print and sneak in later.

davemc · 15th July 2002, 08:28 AM

Yeah I do control room thingy with along lead.

yes I know. Feedback well they can do that small bit in the amp room with the amp. They normally do 10-15 takes for a 10 second slab of feedback, as they are normally not happy with most of them.

Alpha Re players sitting down it, it always amazes me that a lot of players pull up chairs straight away then wonder why there is no vibe in there playing. I do not like playing sitting down as it is harder to move around and have fun..

15th July 2002, 11:22 AM

The slacker kids I work with almost LIE DOWN for takes!

Mike Tholen · 15th July 2002, 02:44 PM

I do GTR in the control room for a few reasons but I also came across the problem of no feedback, vibe, yadda, yadda...here's what I do.

in addition to the main (mic'ed) cabonet, I also run a Mesa/Boogie 'Sattellite' (?) 12" off the cabinet and into the control room.
it is situated at the back of the room and pointed towards the player (not at me!) the player can then choose to turn or face straight at it to achieved feedback. with the control room monitors at a nominal level this is fine with out blowing you away.

Jay Kahrs · 15th July 2002, 05:54 PM

Another factor for me is how I'm getting along with the guitar player. If they're really bugging me and I don't want to around them I'll send them into the room with the amp and say it's for vibe reasons, the guitar reacts better when it's near the amp etc.

Don · 15th July 2002, 06:38 PM

As a player I like to track all ryth. in control room{ I hate cans} and almost always solo type 'O stuff in live room..I've got to feel the amp/guit..Solos are the sex of guit playin.. playin them in the control room is like porn ..nice but not the same

dstagl · 15th July 2002, 07:27 PM

I prefer being in the control room when I'm playing guitar unless I want some feedback--it just lets me work a lot faster. If I'm tracking someone else, depending on the part I'll probably have them in the live room with their amp. When I can, I'll usually throw the talkback mic on a fader so that I don't have the push and hold the button to talk. It's really whatever is going to get the best performance.

Dave

Gone Fission · 15th July 2002, 10:18 PM

Some folks really need to here their amp directly and don't work well with the monitor playback. Any player who uses feedback as a part of their sound needs to be in the same room as a guitar speaker. There are ways of messing with things, though.

Similar to Mike's trick, I remember back when Guns and Roses were still deemed relevant that Slash had some rig contrived for him in the studio where he had his Marshall stacks out in the main room and mic'ed up, but he had his signal split and had one path going to a volume pedal and a Boogie combo (gain structure and response was deemed close enough) right next to him, so that when he needed the feedback, he could bring up the Boogie so it could interact with the guitar. There are lots of different ways to run this sort of thing, but this seemed like an interesting technique.

A different splitter trick, just to get a more interactive sound, is to run one path to one of those 9 volt mini amp things and attach it on or near the headstock. If one of these is cranking enough, it can actually be frighteningly apocolyptic.

Bear

Andy Sneap · 15th July 2002, 10:50 PM

I always have the amp and musician in the control room, I'll sit with guitarist all day, secretly learning the riffs then play the parts when they've gone for the night.

davemc · 16th July 2002, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Sneap
I always have the amp and musician in the control room, I'll sit with guitarist all day, secretly learning the riffs then play the parts when they've gone for the night.

:) I had a band that could not play the part after 30-45 mins I said give me a go, I got it with my limited skills in 2-3 goes.
The guitarist then had to redo it 20-30 minutes passed again, and we went with a cut and edit versions of his.

5down1up · 16th July 2002, 07:32 AM

and when they come by the next day , all the guitar parts are done

. dream configuration :
if they could play their basic tracks live ... happens every 13 years

. i bet most guitar players would prefer a " nice " studio sound compared to their sounds they are already used to .
it kept me 24 hours awake playing guitar during a session when i first discovered the eventide ... 1000 programs 2 go ...

e .
so with all those eqs and comps , fx u slutz own this should be easy to give it that " extra magic " .
i hate it playing to a playback that sounds like shit ...
" oh well , we gonna mix it later anyway "

something that helps me 4 real is keeping some scratch guitar tracks and play 2 them for overdubs . any track that is part of the song should be there . i wonder why most records which are done part by part ( like the drummers playing to a click ... wtf ??? )
sound so unreal .

OH BABY BRING ME SOME WATER

peace

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15th July 2002, 01:49 AM	#1
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	Gtr Amp out in live room player - in Control room or out by amp? I like to coach the players by having them in the same room as me, I dont get much argument. However I just bough this cool amp as reccomended by our esteemed moderator M.Wagener, an Engl Savage 120 Special Edition.. Responsiveness seems real cool with the amp. So! How about speaker cab to gtr 'reaction' and playing responce?? Discuss please.. Michael, do you get up to any special tricks? Obviously feedback is difficult.... With the youngsters I work with I kinda have to stand over them with a baseball bat to get a whole "good gtr track" down! I DO FEEL that my 'go ahead, excite me' / positive energy towards the overdub - with me in the same room as the musician IS a plus point.. but some might disagree! I look forward to coments on this issue greatly!

15th July 2002, 03:51 AM	#2
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 2,903	Jules, congratulations on the ENGL, it will rock your world. I normally keep the amp in the control room, in a place from where I can hear the control room monitors fairly well, so I can make changes to the sound of the amp listening through the microphones. Also, IMHO it's better to have a short guitar cable than a long guitar cable and a short speaker cable (especially with a powerful amp like the 120). I hate talkback switches and the communication with the musicaian is very important. If you do need feedback, have the guitar player touch the cabinet of your control room monitors with the headstock of the guitar, but don't let him anywhere near the actual speaker for obvious reasons. In cases of severe feedback, you might want ot put him in the live room for that part of the recording. Have fun, can't wait to hear the results __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Production workshops at WireWorld Studio

15th July 2002, 04:44 AM	#4
vsl666 Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: london Posts: 199	loud grggt yeah i just noticed that if i turn my amp up tp 12 (yes it does) and my speakers up as loud as i can and then ROK as hard as i still can given my advancing years then i get no splill ... which is nice ... gtr player out in other roon suks as the poor dear feels all left out cast out or whatever ...and a miserable confused gtr player whilst nothing new makes 4 a bad take .. yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy __________________ damian

15th July 2002, 08:28 AM	#6
davemc Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Melb, Australia Posts: 1,029	Yeah I do control room thingy with along lead. yes I know. Feedback well they can do that small bit in the amp room with the amp. They normally do 10-15 takes for a 10 second slab of feedback, as they are normally not happy with most of them. Alpha Re players sitting down it, it always amazes me that a lot of players pull up chairs straight away then wonder why there is no vibe in there playing. I do not like playing sitting down as it is harder to move around and have fun.. __________________ Bye Ya Dave INDENT

15th July 2002, 04:27 AM	#3
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,291	personally i like them in the room WITH the speakers. there is just a sensation being live in the room that is impossible to feel in the CR. plus, ME as a guitarist, i dont want anyone breathing down my neck during the take.... its fine if you stop the take and make a comment but i like my space while its rolling. plus, you are likely to get knocked in the head with my guitar if you are too close. and NEVER let the guitarist sit down for a take when doing rock and roll, for folk/****ry type shit, thats fine... but when the amps turned up they need to be standing up. i really need to get a PA system to blast at them instead of the can method. like full on... to 11. as i was sitting in the rehersal space of my new project, that feeling you get of all the vibrations through your body. it connects your body with the music and vibe. and all those molecules pulsating in the room is what connects the instrument with everything else. i do takes in the CR and while its nice to do that method especially when recording myself because all the controls are there, the takes i get in the live room has so much more power to them... im even known to record myself and hit record, run into the live room, put on the cans and strap on the guitar REALLY quickly waiting for the count in and then go. if i have them in the control room, the amp is in the control room too.

15th July 2002, 11:22 AM	#7
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	The slacker kids I work with almost LIE DOWN for takes!

15th July 2002, 02:44 PM	#8
Mike Tholen Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 823	I do GTR in the control room for a few reasons but I also came across the problem of no feedback, vibe, yadda, yadda...here's what I do. in addition to the main (mic'ed) cabonet, I also run a Mesa/Boogie 'Sattellite' (?) 12" off the cabinet and into the control room. it is situated at the back of the room and pointed towards the player (not at me!) the player can then choose to turn or face straight at it to achieved feedback. with the control room monitors at a nominal level this is fine with out blowing you away.

15th July 2002, 06:38 PM	#10
Don Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Orlando Fl Posts: 203	As a player I like to track all ryth. in control room{ I hate cans} and almost always solo type 'O stuff in live room..I've got to feel the amp/guit..Solos are the sex of guit playin.. playin them in the control room is like porn ..nice but not the same __________________ Don

15th July 2002, 07:27 PM	#11
dstagl Gear Head Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 31	I prefer being in the control room when I'm playing guitar unless I want some feedback--it just lets me work a lot faster. If I'm tracking someone else, depending on the part I'll probably have them in the live room with their amp. When I can, I'll usually throw the talkback mic on a fader so that I don't have the push and hold the button to talk. It's really whatever is going to get the best performance. Dave __________________ Dive Productions http://www.diveproductions.com

15th July 2002, 10:18 PM	#12
Gone Fission Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Terra Incognita Posts: 492	Some folks really need to here their amp directly and don't work well with the monitor playback. Any player who uses feedback as a part of their sound needs to be in the same room as a guitar speaker. There are ways of messing with things, though. Similar to Mike's trick, I remember back when Guns and Roses were still deemed relevant that Slash had some rig contrived for him in the studio where he had his Marshall stacks out in the main room and mic'ed up, but he had his signal split and had one path going to a volume pedal and a Boogie combo (gain structure and response was deemed close enough) right next to him, so that when he needed the feedback, he could bring up the Boogie so it could interact with the guitar. There are lots of different ways to run this sort of thing, but this seemed like an interesting technique. A different splitter trick, just to get a more interactive sound, is to run one path to one of those 9 volt mini amp things and attach it on or near the headstock. If one of these is cranking enough, it can actually be frighteningly apocolyptic. Bear __________________ Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

15th July 2002, 10:50 PM	#13
Andy Sneap Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 131	I always have the amp and musician in the control room, I'll sit with guitarist all day, secretly learning the riffs then play the parts when they've gone for the night.

16th July 2002, 07:32 AM	#15
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	and when they come by the next day , all the guitar parts are done . dream configuration : if they could play their basic tracks live ... happens every 13 years . i bet most guitar players would prefer a " nice " studio sound compared to their sounds they are already used to . it kept me 24 hours awake playing guitar during a session when i first discovered the eventide ... 1000 programs 2 go ... e . so with all those eqs and comps , fx u slutz own this should be easy to give it that " extra magic " . i hate it playing to a playback that sounds like shit ... " oh well , we gonna mix it later anyway " something that helps me 4 real is keeping some scratch guitar tracks and play 2 them for overdubs . any track that is part of the song should be there . i wonder why most records which are done part by part ( like the drummers playing to a click ... wtf ??? ) sound so unreal . OH BABY BRING ME SOME WATER peace

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