Soundcraft Ghost: opinions wanted

[Recording David]

I'm in the market for a 32-channel analogue console and the one that seems to be jumping out, in terms of price+features is the Ghost.

I haven't tried one out yet but I will.

Are there opinions from anyone using/has used the console? Any opinions for alternatives in the same price range? I know that people do customised verions of the Ghost, but I think they're all in the US and I'm in the UK, so that's out of the question, I think. Also - and yes I have looked hard - I cannot find the differences between the regular Ghost and the LE version. Anyone able to enlighten me??

Thanks.

EDIT: I should add that I'll be using it for mixing jazz and maybe some classical, so I won't use the preamps (not yet, anyway). So I'm interested in the 'sound' of the board - will it be an improvement on ITB??

EDIT 2: If anyone in the UK is doing the mods on the Ghost, let me know!!

[StuartMac]

The regular Ghost has mute automation and an on-board "computer". I believe there may also be differences in the signal path (do a search for Ghost and look for Jim Williams' posts) and if I remember correctly the conclusion was that the LE was more desirable in terms of sound at least.

I had one for a few years, and only sold it a few weeks ago. It did me well (I was using it with a RADAR) and I did several records on it that I love the sound of. The pres aren't great, but they'll get you by for drums at a pinch. The EQ is useable (certainly WAY better than the other obvious contender in that price bracket) but you might want one top-notch unit for tracking.

I think it's a fine desk - I only sold it because I just bought an Audient. Also, in all the time I used it I don't think I ever had a single problem with it at all, and that was four years, four or five ten-hour days every week.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by Recording David

I'm in the market for a 32-channel analogue console and the one that seems to be jumping out, in terms of price+features is the Ghost.

I haven't tried one out yet but I will.

Are there opinions from anyone using/has used the console? Any opinions for alternatives in the same price range? I know that people do customised verions of the Ghost, but I think they're all in the US and I'm in the UK, so that's out of the question, I think. Also - and yes I have looked hard - I cannot find the differences between the regular Ghost and the LE version. Anyone able to enlighten me??

Thanks.

The regular Ghost has MIDI mute automation, a basic transport control (Sony 9 pin?) and SMPTE sync capability, if I'm not mistaken. The LE omits these features.

I have a 32 channel Ghost with the MIDI/SMPTE etc, and find it a solid desk for the money. In terms of quality, it is a step up from Mackie desks, especially in the eq department. The preamps aren't great, but they are smoother, rounder and thankfully non-brittle compared to Mackie. They don't have alot of headroom, however.

The Ghost's main weakness is cold-solder joints. Just be sure to check every i/o point carefully and you should be alright. And avoid getting one with the old, gray (under)power(ed) supply - you want to use the black one (with 250 or 275 in the model no.).

I will be selling mine as soon as I can afford either 8 more channels of good outboard preamps and some kind of talkback system, or find a more decent desk like a Yamaha PM1000.

[Recording David]

Hey guys - thanks. Stuart - what's the 'obvious' other contender - the Mackie?

[StuartMac]

Yeah, the Mackie. Each to their own, but I A/Bd the Ghost and the Mackie, and it was almost embarrassing. The Ghost was cheaper too!

[Sounds Great]

I have a 24 LE. Sound and feature wise there is really nothing to touch it in the price range, at least new. The eq's are very usable and the pre's are really not bad, though not the clarity of my outboard (Hardy & Millennia). I love the routing and the 8 effect sends. I do have the newer power supply, but did have a tech go through it to try to make it as quiet as possible, upgraded some caps I believe. Much difference? I dunno, kind of questionable.

My biggest gripe with the LE is that the mute memory is rather random (they are electronically activated mutes, not mechanical). So everytime I power up (if it has been off more than a couple of minutes) I have to un-mute or mute the channels I want to use and not use, there seems to be no consistancy to how they set at power up.

Also, Jim Williams doesn't seem to like the board too much, he says they way it is built it is very hard to work on, and also has much lower channel separation than the old school Soundcrafts, though it seems fine to me.

[jdunn]

Some of the things JW will tell you about these consoles.

The Ghost and Mackie both use surface mount components. These are little tiny miniaturized capacitors and resistors, op amps, etc... they mount directly onto little sockets or indented areas of a circuit board. All the channels are generally on one circuit board with a surface mount console, except for the Audient which has them in groups of 8.

Surface mount components are typically thought to be "not as good" as traditional through-hole components. Regular old through-hole components can be made much larger, and it's easier to make a good part this way. Surface mount parts are like little silicon chips, where a nice beefy film capacitor has some girth to it.

Your old school modular consoles, such as Soundcraft, Trident, SSL, etc... these will be 'modular' in design, meaning that each channel can be pulled out independently of the other channels in the console. Each channel has it's own circuit board, usually with through-hole parts, not surface mount.

I believe John Oram is the only one who tries to claim that surface mount is actually better. He says that because the parts are so small, the distance between components can be kept shorter. And he thinks this makes his surface mount designs sound "better".

Well, I know a guy who had a beautiful Chris Pelonis designed studio built out behind his mothers house. He bought a big Oram console, and later realized that he didn't like it. He couldn't bear to tell his mom the expensive console wasn't cutting the mustard. So, he's had a guy who works at Jensen Transformers mod that thing to the hilt. They put a lot of work into it, along with lots of transformers and other 'real' parts.

If you just want to make music and not think about all this stuff, you can buy pretty much any console. However, if the music is jazz and classical, a bad sounding console will be a problem. That said, I don't think anyone has referred to the Ghost as a 'bad' sounding console. So, if it fits your needs, this may be the one.

Other boards to be on the look out for are the Soundtracs Topaz, Allen & Heath GS 3000, and the Soundcraft Deltas. The Topaz is surface mount like the Ghost, and can be found for cheap. I've heard they're pretty good sounding.

The A&H uses through-hole components I believe, and the Deltas do for sure. The Delta, Sapphyre and 6000 are the main consoles by Soundcraft that Jim Williams usually works on. They can all be modded to sound pretty darn good, using all sorts of cool parts like MIT Multicaps, Roderstein resistors, Burr Brown op amps, etc...

Which reminds me, a lot of people have modded Ghosts. There's a guy at PAD I think who does some mods. I personally think that if you're going to buy a console knowing you might want to mod it, go for a Delta or something that uses through-hole. Surface mount is much more tedious to mod, and if you have problems with a channel, the whole console will need to be taken off-line for repair. With modular, just pull a channel, no problemo.

What price range are you in anyway? I have a 28-frame Soundcraft Delta just gathering dust here. It needs some work by Jim, though nothing major. It's kind of, well, disassembled right now. Very nice console though, with a 16-channel led meter bridge too. I'm looking to get at least $3,000 for it. I paid $3,500. Haven't put it in the classifieds yet because it's in pieces right now.

Okay, that was a long post, but now hopefully you'll know a bit more about analog consoles. If you already knew all this, I apologize for boring you.

Oh yeah, one more thing. If you do go for the Ghost, don't listen to these knuckle-heads who are putting a Variac on the power supply to change the voltage. Jim does not recommend this, as the mains transformer will not last long with this curious 'mod', if you can call it that.

[Broken]

So is it possible to put better parts in surface mount designs?

I have an old 8bus Mackie that I've been thinking about throwing some good parts in. I was going to change the op-amps and put some better caps in the EQ, is it possible?

By the way where abouts are you guys finding the Ghost cheaper than Mackies?

In Australia the Ghost retails for double the price.

[jdunn]

While you could mod a Mackie, I think my recommendation for you is to look at other consoles as well. Surface mount is not easy to mod. Usually requires some specialized tool and/or technique for pulling the parts off the board without destroying the circuit traces.

I'm pretty sure the Mackie does not have socket-mounted IC's, but I could be wrong. With socketed IC's, you can at least change the op amps to something better. But, this may and probably will change some values within the circuit. So, don't just go swapping op amps yourself unless you really know what you're doing.

Your best bet is to spend the money on a better console if you ask me. Or just keep the Mackie 'as is' and improve something else in your signal path. But the likelihood of ruining the Mackie by trying to mod it is pretty high, considering the 'low cost' surface mount design.

BTW, I just noticed an Allen & Heath GS3000 in the classifieds earlier, but he's asking a bit much (over $5,000). Apparently they're discontinued(?), but I haven't checked on that. Could be a really nice console for a slut for sure. Haggle.

[MASSIVE Master]

I don't own a Ghost anymore, but the console from my old studio is at the new owner's place - I've heard the results of it several times, but last week I got to sit at it and concentrate -

He had around half the preamps and the master section modified by Creation Audio Labs... The upgraded preamps are effin' fantastic compared to the stock ones. Not that the stocks are "bad," but when you compare them to the upgrades... Good Lord, it's an entirely different ball game.

Just something to keep in mind if you pick one up... You can get some very serious performance out of that thing with the right tweaks.

[Chrisac]

I owned a 32 channel Ghost which I bought without hearing on reccomendations from users on forums. Bad mistake.

The eq. Many like it. I found it cold/sterile. personal taste

I remember hating the sloped layout. The slope wasnt enough..I always had to strain my neck to see where the EQ pots were. Its not to large, just akward and perhaps designed badly. I had books under the console which helped.

After six months I sold it. Then I bought a Soundcraft sapphyre....Again without listening (geographical location etc). But I really thought I would prefer this one over the ghost as it was older and the build quality is very high. But nope, the EQ was very similiar to the ghost and maybe even colder. A shame really as its a great desk with lots of cool features one of them being noise gates on channels. (maybe compression on some??)

I sold that one also. Stupid me then realised that obviously console manufacturers have a certain sound theme. I should have realised because 15+ years ago I bought a Soundcraft spirit. I didnt like the eq (to cold)..e

Before you buy any console definitely check them out or you will learn the hardway like I did.

Have a look at A+H GL3, GS3 series. personally I prefer the eq and the layout. There are many in the series with huge difference on sh price range. But they all sound similiar. Another one to have a look at if you can is the Tac scorpion and the Yamah PM as someone else also mentioned above.

[~ufo~]

Chrisac,

I don't have much experience w/ soundcraft appart from spirits and doing conferences on ?s. But if you think the EQs on A&H are better, then Soundcraft must be horrible.....

Cos I think the A&H EQs are nasty, especially HMF and HF.
Every time I try and EQ hats or cymbals on a A&H I get this twitch in my lip, like I get when EQing high bands on an older digital desk.
Mind you, I have never used an A&H in the studio, only live.
And I must also add, that I've done some of my best mixes on a A&H (makes me work harder??).
still I don't like the sound of those EQs in the higher bands.... nasty!

I second the Soundtracs tip though, I've never used a Topaz though, but they are suposed to sound pretty nice.
After having just bought my second soundtracs desk, I'm of course a bit biased.
But, I have experience on four different soundtracs consoles and a few others.

David, considering you are in the UK, soundtracs is a good bet, because the main soundtracs maintenance tech and used desk dealer is right there (Watford).
His name is Tim Jones and he's a very nice and helpful cat ( find him at: http://www.studiosystems.co.uk )

Now, a good contestant against the Ghost is the Soundtracs Solo Logic.
http://www.studiosys.demon.co.uk/images/solologic32.jpg
that is, if you are keen on the automation.
the solo logic has midi mutes AND fader driven VCA level automation, peachy

I've owned a Soundtracs IL3632 for about four years now and I'm still loving it.
It was the predecessor to the Jade, but having worked on both, I prefer the IL sonically. http://www.studiosys.demon.co.uk/images/IL36webpic.gif

recently I got a 2nd desk, which is an older model from '84.
It's called the CM4400 and is a really pleasant looking affair w/ VUs and all.
What's more is that the EQs on that thing (though lacking Qs) are really very sweet.
Supposedly a freak design accident, they sound really airy and hifi (in a good way).
http://www.studiosys.demon.co.uk/cm4400.htm

though, when you say you do jazz and classical, I really don't know why you are looking for a 32 channel console.
I'd personally look for a supersweet sub 20 channel console. (calrec, studer, sony etc)

but if you are looking in the range of the ghost, be sure to look at a soundtracs.

[Recording David]

Thanks very much everyone for the very helpful replies. It's given me lots to think about and demo.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

I owned a 32 channel Ghost which I bought without hearing on reccomendations from users on forums. Bad mistake.

The eq. Many like it. I found it cold/sterile. personal taste

I remember hating the sloped layout. The slope wasnt enough..I always had to strain my neck to see where the EQ pots were. Its not to large, just akward and perhaps designed badly. I had books under the console which helped.

After six months I sold it. Then I bought a Soundcraft sapphyre....Again without listening (geographical location etc). But I really thought I would prefer this one over the ghost as it was older and the build quality is very high. But nope, the EQ was very similiar to the ghost and maybe even colder. A shame really as its a great desk with lots of cool features one of them being noise gates on channels. (maybe compression on some??)

I think the layout on the Ghost is wonderful. And the eq is far better than A&H, Mackie, Tascam, Yamaha, Studiomaster, or anything else in this price range that I have heard. Probably not as good as an API, Neve, ect. I am guessing...

[bloodstone]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I think the layout on the Ghost is wonderful. And the eq is far better than A&H, Mackie, Tascam, Yamaha, Studiomaster, or anything else in this price range that I have heard. Probably not as good as an API, Neve, ect. I am guessing...

I've had my Ghost 24 LE for about 5 years. Never had a problem with it. I record to a Tascam MX-2424. I have had some success mixing with the board that rivals what I hear on the radio. It's becoming more and more of a frequent event. I do use stuff like Drawmer, Langevein, Avalon, Joe Meek, Toft to juice things up, but I think for the money you can't go wrong.

I've had some tracking sessions using the pres and things turned out very pleasing. I consider my sonic taste discriminating, and have had the pleasure of recording to Studers, mixing on Tridents to an Ampex 1/2" 2 track, etc. in pro studio situations.

It can be very challenging to get good results, but you can get good to very good results with the Ghost. Occasionally, even amazing. My 2c, YMMV.

Sometimes it's the engineer, not the board.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Some of the things JW will tell you about these consoles.

The Ghost and Mackie both use surface mount components. These are little tiny miniaturized capacitors and resistors, op amps, etc... they mount directly onto little sockets or indented areas of a circuit board. All the channels are generally on one circuit board with a surface mount console, except for the Audient which has them in groups of 8.

Actually you're wrong about the Ghost here.....it is fully modular with all channels having their own circuit board. Only problem is, soundcraft saved a few bucks by having them mount from the back(bottom). I know this because shortly after getting my Ghost32, I made a really dumbass move involving the meter bridge and AC...long story short, I had to remove and replace one channel that had bravely given it's life by becoming a fuse and saving the rest of the console from my stupidity.

To replace a channel you have to take the back off the board, remove the channels knobs/nuts/washers, undo a couple of small ribbon cables and voila'...a modular console. A royal pain, but nonetheless, modular.

I used this console as a 31 channel board without any problems whatsoever until my replacement channel arrived from soundcraft Canada (who were EXCELLENT by the way). The board was used and long out of warranty, but they gave me a GREAT deal on the replacement channel, and quick, polite service.

Now, as far as sonics goes, the Ghost is fine. Certainly on par with anything I've heard in its price range (and better than most). No it's not an API but what do you expect considering what you get for the price.

Personally, I think the ergonomics/routing of the ghost is superb. 32 mic/line channels, 32 tape returns with mix B routing. Plenty of output options (studioA, studioB, main outs, alt outs, control room outs etc....)

As for Allen & Heath, I haven't used them enough to really judge their sonics, but I can say that their ergonomics/routing scheme was not nearly as well designed for me and the way I work. The Ghost is laid out like I expect a studio board to be. The A&H I've seen have had me scratching my head and asking WTF? But to each their own.....

Just my 24 bits....

-Z-

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by zakco

As for Allen & Heath, I haven't used them enough to really judge their sonics, but I can say that their ergonomics/routing scheme was not nearly as well designed for me and the way I work. The Ghost is laid out like I expect a studio board to be. The A&H I've seen have had me scratching my head and asking WTF? But to each their own.....

Years ago, when I worked at W. LA Music, me and a couple of the guys did a shoot out between the Mackie, A&H, Tascam M2600, and Soundcraft Spirit Studio.

Of course it is just opinion, we rated them like this:

1. Soundcraft
2. Tascam
3. Allen and Heath
4. Mackie

[crypticglobe]

Yeah, I am gonna have to third the Soundtracs Topaz. I had one of those for a while. They got DIRT cheap here in the US. That board BLEW away a Mackie or a Ghost! It really sounds great for what it is. I mean... it's not a Neotek or anything... but the pre's are totally acceptable. Eq's real darn good. Very quiet. I actually wish I still had mine, I would be summing through it right now if I did. :)

[krou]

I have zero experience with any of these boards, but in my humble opinion, when people refer to the "eq's being harsh on cymbals", I mean let's get real here, so many factors come into play, just like a monitor debate, no? What kind of cymbal, what kind of mic was used, how was it placed, what kind of room and acoustics, what kind of drummer?

Nothing wrong with sharing experiences with a board, but if I was the one shopping, I wouldn't base my decision on one person's opinion of the board's eq because he claims to pinch his lips when boosting the highs on a cymbal. Maybe I'm talking out my ass, perhaps, still learning....one bit at a time.

[jdunn]

Yeah, before you go looking for a Soundtracs Topaz, you should hop on over to Harvey Gersts' forum at Pro Sound Web.

Pro Sound Web Forums hyperlink HERE

I don't usually look at this forum, but today I happened to, and there were a number of threads about the Topaz. I didn't read any of them, but one did mention something about a +4 dB mod. Who knows? Might be worth reading if you're considering a Topaz.

This may draw some negative comments, but.......nah, never mind. I was going to mention digital boards.