The development of hip-hop sound & engineering

[ttauri]

Taking this out of the hip-hop drum samples thread to go off topic (sent it as a PM to Darius, but am posting it at his suggestion):

Originally Posted by T. Tauri

I dunno. I remember the first time I heard Eric B & Rakim dropped in a club (aka first time I heard them period)... and the effect was like: .

There was a *sound* to hip-hop in those days that stood out, and you just knew it when you heard it, and to me that's one hell of an accomplishment. It rewrote the sonic template like crazy. S'like: I don't hear anything about Bid Daddy Kane's "RAW" that doesn't translate, but it's speaking first in a different language, y'know? And I remember how the discussions amongst the DJs at the record store were plenty sophisticated, but they were seizing on different aspects from what was the norm then. More often now, hip-hop just strikes me as a region of R&B, both in spirit and sonically speaking.

Beyond that, I think for me personally, I tend to think of hip-hop as aural graffiti: it's the sound of people in your neighborhood getting up, and if getting that sound is too esoteric, if the result is too lofty & polished, it ceases to sound so 'round the block. (Of course, in those days, you still had to go to a studio and record to tape and benefit--maybe--from some of the engineer's skills, even at the low end, too. Different from the low-end now.)

But as far as the polish of modern commercial hip-hop goes: I wonder if we're in its "Shalimar" era (the one that gets eclipsed as time goes on by more durable predecessors like the "Stevie" era).

So what do y'all think about the development of hip-hop's sound in terms of engineering?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[dharma one]

listened through about 15 new albums tonight. i think the engineering now is sick.
full spectrum, big bass and crisp highs.. quite dry and punchy as hell.. there is more "space" as well as the sounds are quite short and each in their sonic space. sonically hiphop sounds better than ever i think. not so sure about the content....


other eras i really like are mid 90s, pete rock, gangstarr etc, sounds fat but not as high end... and early 80s steez like kurtis blow sounds just toooooo fat. i really like 80-83 engineering and gear anyway

[Jules]

Can I just say that I find all the audio production inovation these days resides pretty much solidly in this pop hip hop / R&B camp.

In other words its a very exciting area...

Hats off!

From using a ping pong ball sound for a snare to giving a track a galley slaveship chant, to having NO HiHat's at all.. Everything seems to be up for grabs and 'changin'.

I love seing what these engineers & producers come out with next..

Stand aside and make way for the real innovators....

(I bow in respect of them)

[7ciel]

I sooo agree.

So sad it's limited to the america market (maybe extended to england as well). So sad I work for the french market.

[NeoVXR]

but amel was many weeks top 1 ! big congratulations !

[7ciel]

And big thanks to you.
Do we know each other?

[Silver Sonya]

This isn't the rawest, most "street" record in the world, but it sure sounds amazing. Still to this day: Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation of" LP. I don't know who produced/engineered it, but it's great. I have it on my iPod and often use it when I'm going running.

Forceful without being pushed or over-bright, the way a lot of hip hop engineering can be.

Man, I love Mos Def, but could someone please help him with the treble knob!? Easy on that thing, my friend...

--- c

[Exmun]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

This isn't the rawest, most "street" record in the world, but it sure sounds amazing. Still to this day: Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation of" LP. I don't know who produced/engineered it, but it's great. I have it on my iPod and often use it when I'm going running.

Forceful without being pushed or over-bright, the way a lot of hip hop engineering can be.

Man, I love Mos Def, but could someone please help him with the treble knob!? Easy on that thing, my friend...

--- c

The "production" question is an open issue, as there was a lot of litigation and ultimately a settlement over who actually "produced" it. The record says Lauren herself produced it, but the guys who did a lot of playing on the record (Nobles et al) say they produced it... or at least their lawyer says they produced it.

It was engineered by "Commissioner" Gordon Williams, one of hip hop's best and somewhat unsung engineers. He and Jimmy Douglas of Timbaland fame do some of the best engineering & mixing work in the biz. I think some of it was recorded at Lauren's home studio and later taken for more recording and mixing at Chung King in NYC.

I agree about "Miseducation" being an instant classic records for the "sound" of it alone... even moreso that the record's content made it instantly classic while being relevant when it came out.

[leftcoastproduc]

I believe todays hip hop is blown wide open in regards to experimentation and genres......Digable Planets(back together!! ) King Britt, Gorillaz,Shadow, Greyboy, Tribe Called Quest,De La Soul all are some of my favorites that have helped break the mold that was set by the early likes of 80's gangsta rap.......problem is todays radio stations are not playing the creative works influenced by these people....they are slave driven by the Oh so famous Clear Channel....so unless you sell 40,000 units out of your trunk or know some KEY people there isn't a chance to hear forward thinking tunes with content and sophisticated beats unless you dig in and do a little research.....I agree there's more quality in todays standards in terms of bit rates and headroom but what's the difference if you turn the channel after 3 seconds of lyrical nonsense.....todays present status of hip hop is worse off than it was 10 years ago and yet we are in an era where everyone has an Mbox,mic,and unlimited plugins.....

my two cents

[kennyd03]

I agree that a lot of the most exciting things going on sonically and musically are in the hip hop world. There are no rules there - pretty much anything goes!

I think when talking about the history of the sound of hip hop, you have to give Dr. Dre props for producing really great sounding records and setting the standard for rap for many years.

-KD03

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by kennyd03

I think when talking about the history of the sound of hip hop, you have to give Dr. Dre props for producing really great sounding records and setting the standard for rap for many years.

-KD03

That could be a good and bad thing... He is a part of the reason why mainstream rap is so wack IMO

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by kennyd03

I agree that a lot of the most exciting things going on sonically and musically are in the hip hop world. There are no rules there - pretty much anything goes!

I think when talking about the history of the sound of hip hop, you have to give Dr. Dre props for producing really great sounding records and setting the standard for rap for many years.

-KD03

I think Dre is a good example of a good thing creating terrible imitations. All hail Dre, but I can't deal with the imitations.

(If you're a Pearl Jam fan --- which I am not --- I'm sure you can't stomach Stone Temple Pilots or Creed's heinous echoes of the same vocal approach.)

I want "The Chronic" to be remastered and reissued in 5.1! Ha!

--- c

[leftcoastproduc]

IMO Dre gets a little too much credit for the productions that have his stamp on it.....yes he turned P-Funk into G-Funk by sampling all the famous hits of the 70's.....and later then figured out that its a hell of alot cheaper if you just hire 3 studio musicians and one of the best engineers in the biz to help you create these mega-hits in another form (without paying the royalties)......but what about originality? if anything he's great at remixing and sampling not producing original ground breakng tunes......its easy to sample a hook how about creating one?

wish I had that kind of dough then I could quit my job build a home studio and have four live in pro's to make music for me.....maybe even have one write for me

[7ciel]

I agree : Dre is kinda the best A&R in this biz

[six_wax]

I listen to too little hip hop these days. What's the latest and greatest in terms of sound and engineering? What records should I not be without as references?

[strauss]

Originally Posted by six_wax

I listen to too little hip hop these days. What's the latest and greatest in terms of sound and engineering? What records should I not be without as references?

I'm really feelling Scott Storch.
Check allmusic.com for his credits.

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by strauss

I'm really feelling Scott Storch.
Check allmusic.com for his credits.

Scott is the MAN!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Jules

Can I just say that I find all the audio production inovation these days resides pretty much solidly in this pop hip hop / R&B camp.

I love seing what these engineers & producers come out with next..

Stand aside and make way for the real innovators....

(I bow in respect of them)

Why do you think there's a lack of innovation in the rock/pop camp? Is it because there's no effort being made to break new ground or because no one is interested in breaking new ground?

I'm all for breaking new ground as long as it doesn't stomp on and overshadow the music.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Why do you think there's a lack of innovation in the rock/pop camp? Is it because there's no effort being made to break new ground or because no one is interested in breaking new ground?

There's been lots of innovation in rock/pop recordings over the last 10 years, from acts such as Linkin Park, Garbage, Poe, PJ Harvey ("Uh Huh Her" to wit), Scissor Sisters, Death From Above, etc. which tends to get overlooked. Or just plain not respected, for many reasons, not the least because evaluations of rock recordings are often frozen in the sentimentalized context of Pink Floyd's DSOTM, et al.

I'm all for breaking new ground as long as it doesn't stomp on and overshadow the music.

If the recording is truly "breaking new ground," then that new ground IS the music, and so you don't have to worry about it getting stomped on or overshadowed. More often, it's traditionalist attitudes towards rock production which stomps on and overshadows the music, thus preventing the breaking of new ground.

Hip hop production has begun to reach that point. Street level rappers today are very self-conscious about whether their sound fits certain established norms. That's what happens when an artform becomes big business: It becomes frozen in a sentimentalized context of what makes it profitable, which is inevitably formulaic, and eventually, repetitive. It's the 20-year cycle in effect.

[dagg]

all above said is reason why today music sales are in steady decline. Hats down to mix etc. skills. But musically alot of semi-skilled amateurs took scene. Together with administration-rooted A&R's (accountants, lawyers etc) they dictate new trends without knowing much about music and human reaction to it. While labels-turn-conglomerates spend loads of advertising money, sales are declining. They lament about bad state of industry and mention endless reasons, but main reason is obvious.

And reason is quite simple, people don't like what they hear (thus, they don't buy what they don't like). It is hard to believe that you wouldn't spend $1.- to download a song that you really like. Thus price isn't problem. Every once in a while we see artist that sells sh*tloads of CD-s - because people like what they hear.

Human brain behavior and reaction is pretty known matter today. Ad agencies are using this knowledge at their advantage. Music production/manufacturing isn't much different (ancient Bach and Mozart both knew those rules wery well, and they are still called artists). Some may argue about creativity and inspiration, but fact is that similar rules can be found on 90% of hits. Because people who write them know rules (not easy task to learn).

At the end, while recording part of business (mix engineers, equipment) show high standards, writers/producers fail to deliver what's sought after. It's like people love green shoes and labels are constantly bombarding them with blue ones.

After all, if ABBA managed to sell tens of millions of records when gramophones weren't in every home, today equivalent download-enabled artist should sell much more. Yes, today we have more music choices and entertainment channels, but there is so much crap in music that any appealing project should sell in huge quantities.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

There's been lots of innovation in rock/pop recordings over the last 10 years, from acts such as Linkin Park, Garbage, Poe, PJ Harvey ("Uh Huh Her" to wit), Scissor Sisters, Death From Above, etc. which tends to get overlooked. Or just plain not respected, for many reasons, not the least because evaluations of rock recordings are often frozen in the sentimentalized context of Pink Floyd's DSOTM, et al.

Ya know, I usually don't agree with you but I have to agree with some of it.

There is plenty of good music being made in the rock/pop camp...but I thought we were talking about the AE side of the coin...stylized recordings that create a mood for the record. IMHO from the engineering side of the coin, a Gabage record could be interchanged with Linkin Park.

[Silver Sonya]

The only artist I can stomach from the list cited by Curve Dominant is PJ Harvey. I love PJ Harvey, but that list is truly frightening to me. It's all inconsequential commercial drivel to my ears. None of those bands will mean anything in ten years time. Of course that's opinion and speculation.

So I suppose further discussion along these lines could send this thread down a needless rabbit hole of hopelessly subjective discussion of artistic merit. Ultimately, music is always a "to each his own" type of thing.

But, man, Linkin Park ? You and I have REALLY different tastes...

--- c

[ttauri]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

Street level rappers today are very self-conscious about whether their sound fits certain established norms.

Bingo!

I find that's crept into my own mixing as well... I used to go for more exotic balances or timbral effects, but not so much at the moment (something I'm striving to get back to, though).

Peece,
T. Tauri

[themaidsroom]

i can't even deal with p.j. harvey.......

linkin park..... they are unspeakably horrible in my opinion - they make me
question everything....how does something this bad gain an audience??
i'm at a loss for words.........

i love jim white.........he's really great

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

I think Dre is a good example of a good thing creating terrible imitations. All hail Dre, but I can't deal with the imitations.

I want "The Chronic" to be remastered and reissued in 5.1! Ha!

--- c

very well put, a good thing creating terrible imitations. And supposedly Dre's next album will be released in 5.1. Should be very interesting!


Me personally, I love love the sound of all the older hip hop records. Its a lot dirtier and grittier than the more polished sound we have today. I love all the D & D Studios stuff, man some legendary records came outta that place! Joe Quinde did a lot of that stuff. I love the mixes Rich Travali did on Nas' stuff, especially It Was Written. I still listen to all the older classic records all the time. Stuff like Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt, B.I.G, Nas Illmatic and It Was Written ,, etc. It was a great time for hip hop during the 90s, a lot of great records were made. But of course it has to evolve which we''re seeing right now. And the period we're in seems to be something like puberty for hip hop. It seems we're growing outta this boring, cookie cutter time and into something else. So the engineering and the sound is evolving with it. Its grown to be a bit more polished and commercial-friendly. But I think there are still a lot of great sounds and mixes out there today, just different from what it used to be.


I think hip hop engineers are underrated honestly. A lot of hip hop producers don't really produce beyond doing the beat. So this falls into the engineer's lap. From producing the vocals while tracking or doing mutes and breakdowns during the mix, etc, these are all things I've had to deal with as an engineer. And I'm not complaining, i like it, but it seems to be more than just engineering.

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by SoundEng1

Scott is the MAN!

yes scott is the man! Probably one of the most underated hip hop producers out today. A lot of people don't know that he played most of Dre's hits, as well as a long string of his own. Definitely check out his credit list, its impressive. Also the biggest pothead I've ever met. Dude can SMOKE!

[missilanious]

I don't really agree with most of you, yes production got better (except for much weaker drums in comparison to earlier hiphop.) But in terms of sonics things got so much worse. yes things are much more crispy and things sit and don't move due to too much processing. just picked up Common"s album, way to much vocal processing, too much top in mix just to crunchy in general. Everyone is so bent on crisp and loud the norm soniclly has driven much of the personallity out of most hiphop. Stuffs just sounding very lifeless in my opinion. Aside from Timberland's engineer which still does it right, everything is way to sqeezed and thin in current hiphop (for the most part) that I can't get any real sence of energy out of the music. Like most popular music in generall everything is the market is more focused on the mp3 and ipod market the people who actually like playing music loud through something of decent quality suffer from lack of sonic breathing and are left with something that just screams at you with a lack of change and just leaves me not wanting to listen to the album again with a headache and a fatigued ear. Aside from hiphop what the hell happened when it came to mastering NIN "with teeth". like the album but I can't listen to it, it just hurts so bad, can't listen to more than two songs through without my ears saying stop. Way to ruin a great album.

[Darius van H]

I think Scott Storch has taken it to a whole new level........the fact that he produced both Mario's hit "Let me love you....." and "Lean Back" is unbelievable......another guy i like (in terms of sound) is