a compressor or a limiter?

[FMNYC]

WTF.

i have been reading here about the Alan Smart C2, the STC-8 and the API 2500.
these threads are dear to my heart 'cause one of these will be my next piece of gear.
i'm summing OTB these days and my final limiter is the software version of the waves L2.
it's easy to use but i don't like the sound i'm getting, sure sh_t gets loud but, it, at least to my ears, is killing my dynamics.

so, the question is:

the items i mentioned above are compressors, right?
i should be looking at a limiter(s) to replace my L2, right?
if so, which do you guys recommend.

alright, that was three questions, not one.

peace!

FM

FM of the seven veils.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

WTF.

i'm summing OTB these days and my final limiter is the software version of the waves L2.
it's easy to use but i don't like the sound i'm getting, sure sh_t gets loud but, it, at least to my ears, is killing my dynamics.

FM of the seven veils.

L2 kills the dynamixs of your mix? No. Never. Impossible. Its just not true. Liars, liars, all of you are liars!!!!!


Why does your mix need to be "loud"? Is the volume control on your monitoring section malfunctioning?

Why do you necessarily "need" a compressor on the mix buss? Is there something missing from the mix? Or is it all these assholes on the internet making you think you "need" a buss compressor.

A mix buss compressor is not a band aid for a mix, and the L2 limiter is not a substitute for a volume control.

If you're looking for a little glue, not loudness, a touch of mix buss compression can help, but I would recommend starting the mix with it in (also experiment with sidechaining out the sub bass)

I like the EL Fatso for this purpose, YMMV.

[FMNYC]

i hear ya.
and no, "loud" is not important to me but i will explain:

after mixing ITB for about two years i finally got myself an API 8200A, i love that thing, great sound, etc...
the problem is that the output from the xlr's is kinda low, so i called API and spoke to an engineer there.
nice guy, i learned a lot, and to make a long story short he said that basically what i'm getting out of the 8200 is it, i should look into a 2 buss compressor/limiter.

hence this thread.

the L2 certainly raises the voulme of the stereo mix but, to my humble ears, is harsh.
i would like to think that the overall mix is good, what i started doing is re-mixing with the L2 on the chain, even tracking with it sometimes.

FM

FM loves you and he aint' gonna crack.

[lucey]

a little off topic, but what kind of levels are you getting out of the 8200?

[JonCraig]

if you've got L2, then you've got C1, right? and probably RenComp? try either of these on the 2 buss. remember that w/ program material, you'll probably want a *really* conservative ratio, as well as attack and release times.

an L2 pretty much squarewaves whatever you put over its threshold, so it should really just be used to ward off clips (set it at -.1 dBfs or so).

be gentle w/ 2 buss compression... we want the mastering guy to have fun too, right?

--jon

[MASSIVE Master]

I think a lot of people aren't familiar with "the mastering guy" anymore...

And as much as I agree with just "kissing" the mix buss compressor (if it's there at all) the STC8 has a wonderful limiter also.

[Sounds Great]

The line between compression and limiting is not always so clear in my opinion.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

The line between compression and limiting is not always so clear in my opinion.

soft knee


a line in the sand


hard knee





take me to the line ... where is that confounded line!?

[UncleVinky]

Use a Mastering engineer to do your final limiting and EQ. Someone you trust and respect there ears. Save them some room on your final mix so they can add that little something Xtra.
Cheers!

[FMNYC]

thanks for the responses!

lucey:

the levels coming out of the 8200A are low, i don't know how to say that in "numbers" since i am a total state of ignorance when it comes to technical stuff. maybe this will make it clearer.
once i have a stereo mix i like, minus vocals, i need to dupe that stereo track and do my final summing, with the vocal track and the two "main stereontracks" thru the 8200A. then i get good levels and don't need an L2 to raise the overall loudness.
i could continue doing that but then i lose two tracks on my 8200A which i could use should i decide to add something else to the song.

JonCraig:

after i read your post i went back and looked at the final track's waveform and you aint' kidding about square waves!
yeah, sure it's loud but the final stereo track is a total rectangle.
not good.
i took the threshold down on the L2 and lo and behold, better waveform, not as loud.

i dunno, i'm about to scrap the L2 and stick to my "duping" method and no, unfortunately i do not have the C1 with my waves bundles.
i will try the RenComp, which i do have, and will attempt to be very light handed with the L2.

this something which is really making me see how much i need to learn.

back to work.

FM

FM is dolphin and tuna safe.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

the items i mentioned above are compressors, right?
i should be looking at a limiter(s) to replace my L2, right?
if so, which do you guys recommend.

The STC-8 is both a compressor and a limiter.

http://cranesong.com/stc8.html

[Jamz]

Even in prestigeous mastering studios behind the hardware lurks an L2 regardless of platform. Not saying that's bad just a reality.

[FMNYC]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Even in prestigeous mastering studios behind the hardware lurks an L2 regardless of platform. Not saying that's bad just a reality.

you mean, even after they use something like that OH SO AWESOME STC-8?
no sh_t.

hmmmmmm...

FM

FM wants the FBI to back off or the little old lady gets it.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by FMNYC

you mean, even after they use something like that OH SO AWESOME STC-8?
no sh_t.

hmmmmmm...

FM

LOL! The STC-8 was not used nor was it in the room at this particular facility. I don't own one (yet) but would love to have one.
Processing gear did incude:

Sontec, ITI, Focusrite Blue EQs
Chandler Compressors

and...L2

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

The STC-8 is both a compressor and a limiter.

http://cranesong.com/stc8.html

Right .. but just barely useful as a limiter.


And the lowly L2 can work just fine if it's

a) not hit too hard
b) comlimented with fat analog and the right eq compensation

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by UncleVinky

Use a Mastering engineer to do your final limiting and EQ. Someone you trust and respect there ears. Save them some room on your final mix so they can add that little something Xtra.
Cheers!

Where to begin...

There are lots of good reasons to not use heavy compression or peak limiting on the master bus but leaving it for the mastering engineer is NOT one of them!

The goal of a mix is to allow listeners to hear the music in an optimum, flattering balance that evolves in an exciting way from moment to moment. We want people to have this same musical experience no matter where they hear the recording.

One of the keys to a successful mix that "translates" well is using as little signal processing as one can get away with. This is because it's really easy to tweak something into compensating all of the flaws in the mix room monitors while at the same time making it sound completely out to lunch in most other situations.

If the balance isn't just right, compressors will radically change the musical balance so it's important to know what a compressor is going to do and even more important to know what the next three or four compressors that lie out of our control between the studio and the end listener are likely to do.

The only thing to leave for mastering is the final peak limiting that is used to set the overall level. The reason for leaving this is because the final sequence will determine where the limiter should be set and you want to limit it as few times as possible.

Certainly compression is a valid tool for flavor but it always needs to be used very carefully to avoid mixes that "sort of" work in the mix room but don't work at all in the real world.

[FMNYC]

alright... an update.

i decided to buckle down and remix one of my songs as follows:

8 tracks to the API 8200A
the summed output of the 8200A to the
inputs of my Mindprint DTC pre and into an
aux buss with an L2 and a LMB

as you guys say, i barely "kissed" the L2 and i have to say that yes, this way it's sounding better.
i need to take some time with the Mindprint, according to the guys that make it, apparently it can totally be used as a master compressor.
i dunno, i got to keep at it but the good news is that i don't have to push that L2 as hard to get some juice back in.

VIVA EL ANALOG!


FM

FM... in a manner of speaking.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by lucey

And the lowly L2 can work just fine if it's

a) not hit too hard
b) comlimented with fat analog and the right eq compensation

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Where to begin...

There are lots of good reasons to not use heavy compression or peak limiting on the master bus but leaving it for the mastering engineer is NOT one of them!

The goal of a mix is to allow listeners to hear the music in an optimum, flattering balance that evolves in an exciting way from moment to moment. We want people to have this same musical experience no matter where they hear the recording.

One of the keys to a successful mix that "translates" well is using as little signal processing as one can get away with. This is because it's really easy to tweak something into compensating all of the flaws in the mix room monitors while at the same time making it sound completely out to lunch in most other situations.

If the balance isn't just right, compressors will radically change the musical balance so it's important to know what a compressor is going to do and even more important to know what the next three or four compressors that lie out of our control between the studio and the end listener are likely to do.

The only thing to leave for mastering is the final peak limiting that is used to set the overall level. The reason for leaving this is because the final sequence will determine where the limiter should be set and you want to limit it as few times as possible.

Certainly compression is a valid tool for flavor but it always needs to be used very carefully to avoid mixes that "sort of" work in the mix room but don't work at all in the real world.

Nicely said! Couldn't agree more. I notice that the...not so much better but perhaps more experienced mastering engineers attempt to preserve the qualities of the mix rather than pushing the s**t out of it. Great care is taken when making even small .5db changes in EQ. Compression is used at a minimum. The L2 is used only as a final gloss over so to speak. I believe loud recordings are coming primarily from loud mixes rather than the mastering house.