MIXING DOWN FROM PROTOOLS ADVICE

[themusicguy]

Looking for some advice from people getting the most out of their Protools HD rigs. Many of my colleagues debate much about the sound quality (punch & clarity) that comes out of the Digi boxes. I need to mix an album from my Digi HD 192 rig. Have limited budget/time to go to a great Los Angeles studio to mix. Album was tracked with high quality gear and engineers. I am looking for top quality board and/or analog summing, mixdown setup for a home studio. Would prefer to buy an analog summing unit over board (less space). Renting highend units for mixdown is an option for me as well. I have great monitors, amp. Recently demoed the Dangerous 2Bus into a Masterlink. Thought I was good to go and now I hear the Alesis Masterlink has cheap AD convertors.

What are you guys using that give you the best sound to your ears? Thanks.

[lawrence_o]

Hi,

I once starting to really HATE pro tools sound. But then again, I was working on merely 882 20 bit boxes.

Until I bought some Prism ADA8 ADDA converters and since that moment, my sound got really really good and I started to believe in Digital again.

Now, the 192 digi boxes you have are better than my 882s but still, my opinion is that they still are NOT worth their price. I compared them with Prisms and found the 192 to lack indeed stereo width, depth and air. What I would do in your place if you have limited budget, I would try renting some Prisms, perhaps from the company itself. That and the waves Platinum bundle work just fine for me.

Of course, comparing e.g. 10 different compressors or EQs on one signal will always reveal some differences but its the total mix that counts right? Don't waste too much time on thinking "which compressor or EQ should I use here?"

I recently did a track with just 2 prisms, the platinum bundle and the IR1 convolution reverb from waves and compared the sound with that of Destiny's Child's Lose my Breath and I must say I was proud to notice my sound could really compare.

You don't need tons of gear. In fact, try to do as little as possible with the signals. First try to level and pan everyting without any effect, compressor whatever, absolutely nothing at all. You'll be surprised about the result already. Then start listening if there are elements that are really peaking out. Put some compression on it.

Then start listening of there are instruments or vocals that are really overlapping and disturbing each other. Use some EQ there but listen to the sound, don't look at the EQ. If it appears you find it sounding bloody great and special but if your EQ graph looks like the mount Everest, so what?

Then put some effects here and there. If necessary EQ your effects or do some additional stuff to tweak it all.

Finally, put the waves linear multiband comressor on it but compress gently. If necessary, you can already crank some frequencies here and there. Below that, put the Lineair maximizer I think it is the L3 or so and take up the level to -0.5 db ( In fact, I always to to -0.01 db and so far, no problems or complaints... )


Hope this helps.

Regards

[rr1073]

We just finished mixing an album recorded at 48/24 in PT HD3 Acell. We tried 3 different methods.
1. Out of PTHD into a Masterlink to a 96K CD.
2. Totally "in the box."
3. Out of PTHD to multiple inputs of a Trident 80C console. We didn't do each track individually, but kind of made many stems. Then back into PTHD at the same sample rate.

After comparing these methods we went with the Trident.

[wwittman]

It's always going to sound better if you can split out into 32 or more outputs instead of mixing in the box or even summing to 8 outputs...

But I think that the 192 convertors sound pretty good.

I mixed an album last spring to the Masterlink at 96 and back into PT HD at 48k (which the original session was)...
at mastering we A-B'd for about the first 4 songs..
we gave up comparing because in EVERY case the PT mixes blew the Masterlink away.


I should add this was mixed out of PT through 192 i/o's to 32 tracks of a Neve 8068... then back into 2 tracks of PT and to the Masterlink simultaneously.

If you cannot mix on an actual desk with one fader for each track, then I'd go with the Dangerous 2 bus and mix back into PT

[parissound]

I mentioned in an earlier thread that I had a project I recorded in PTLe and mixed at Skylight Recording Studio in NJ and mixed ITB on PTHD.

The sound was amazing, wide and huge. I did notice he used a SSL FX G384 on the mix bus when he bounce the session.

I always thought that Mixing ITB was bad but not after this great mix.

The engineer did state that the tracks were recorded well and that helped the mix.

Eric M.

[JTR]

Originally Posted by lawrence_o

Hi,

IFinally, put the waves linear multiband comressor on it but compress gently. If necessary, you can already crank some frequencies here and there. Below that, put the Lineair maximizer I think it is the L3 or so and take up the level to -0.5 db ( In fact, I always to to -0.01 db and so far, no problems or complaints... )


Hope this helps.

Regards

yeah, make that mix squeal!

print a second mix without the 2bus multiband & brickwall, just in case.

Somewhere, sometime, you'll be glad you did.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by djui5

I'd recommend if you are mixing ITB to watch your levels. The more you cram the master buss the worse it's going to sound.
The PT buss breaks up when you hit it with too much....so keep your level's down, preferable in the green on the master buss. Things will sound much clearer and more defined.
Also using a touch of compression and verb on the master buss will help glue things together...similar to what you would do outboard, but with ITB you really really need it...

SO if you are doing 24bit/88.2 in logic (for example) and bouncing (mixing) to a stereo 24/88.2 file you should avoid the top of the master 2 buss meter altogether?

i usually avoid all compression plugs at this stage to keep a natural sound (this is not hard rock) but try to make it so the transient peaks get pretty close (within -.2 here and there maybe twice/three times in a track) to lighting up the clip meter on the master buss (but NEVER actually light it up).

so is this a bad thing to do and i'm better off having lower peaks (and lower over all level) at mixdown?? (and save all "level concerns" for mastering?)

i do it all in the box so any advice here would be valuable to say the least.

also why not just wait on the 2 buss compression (sonalksis in my case) until mastering? won't that sound cleaner if i add the "glue" then??

what do you all think?
thanks
eli

[lawrence_o]

Originally Posted by JTR

yeah, make that mix squeal!

print a second mix without the 2bus multiband & brickwall, just in case.

Somewhere, sometime, you'll be glad you did.

Well I don't do this all the time, it really depends on the type of music. Tricks like these usually wirk out perfect for techno, house and dance.

I know this may sound stupid but play a little with these waves tools. You can really do cool stuff with them. I have had a lot of people already asking me questions like:
"gee how come your stuff sound so loud and punchy? We had ours mastered in the UK and payd about 1000 euro for 1 track and we don't have half the punch"

It's the mackie strategy, don't do what anyone else says, try writing your own book on it.

But as I've been saying all along and I really can't emphasis this enough, use only the best converters! Since I moved from the Digi converters to the ADA8's (Prism) everything just started sounding 10 times as good and you really do things more precise! I hooked 1 digi box and 1 Prism on the PT Mix and did an automated EQ sweep on the same track, one through the digi and 1 through the ADA. I guess you can compare it as playing a game on a commodore 64 versus a PS2 or an Xbox!

Also, although I agree that you should get better results when using more outputs with some summing if necessary, with the ADA8 this is not even necessary for your basic dance track. The 2 bus gives more than enough headroom and stereo width because the clocks of these prisms are so accurate that you don't suffer phasing and jitter and stuff which narrow your mix extremely when using digiboxes.

I can only really recommend anyone, especially those who are using only a DAW without external mixer in the range of an SSL, API, Neve to at least rent an ADA8 and use both ADDA on 8 channels. When you do that, there's a big chance you won't want anything else anymore.

Regards

[Jamz]

I'm hearing good things about the Sumthang from Inner Tube Audio.
8 inputs --> stereo output.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by djui5

Eli,
I don't know about logic. I use Pro-Tools and have found that when clouding up the mix buss with a mix that's close to 0, the mix sounds "rough", but when I pull down the faders 5-8db things sound cleaner, clearer, more defined, and there seems to be a bit more space. This is regardless of what comp's or anything I have on the 2buss.

well i guess i will have to do some A/B with a mix. one that peaks at around -.2 and one that peaks about -5 and then "master" them both and see which one sounds better.

thanks for the info.
eli

[bobmix]

Hey all-
I happened to be browsing around tonight and noticed this thread. Very interesting. As one who, for a while now, gets paid dumb money to mix in the "big" room (usually SSL 9k, lots of cool outboard), I've been mixing a fair amount of stuff at my place (PTDH accel 3, Yamaha O2R96, Big Ben, etc.).

It seems to be ABSOLUTELY true re: 2bus levels in digital.

I've noticed that as you get closer to "0" (on the meters, at least), a lot of stuff starts to collapse - L/R width, individual instrument definition, front to rear depth, transients - it really turns into mush. The difference is startling. While I've always been one to hit dig (A/D converters) pretty hard, the aforementioned issues have changed the way I do things (at least ITB, or staying Digital w/the 02r96. I'm glad to hear others' thoughts on this - the more I mix this way, the more convinced I am about this issue.

Gee, headroom....sounds like we're back to basics...what a trip, no?

BTW, I run an analog chain on my mix bus, then back into my AD8000 SE. This, too, makes a big difference (Pendulum ES8 or API 2500-sometimes, then GML 8200, then Tube Tech PE1C). In particular, the Tube Techs, even without any cut/boost, seem to deepen the soundfield.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by bobmix

Gee, headroom....sounds like we're back to basics...what a trip, no?

.

My guess is, no. There are many difficulties with mixing digitally, but I don't believe that headroom is one of them. I'd check your analog chain.

-R

[bobmix]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

My guess is, no. There are many difficulties with mixing digitally, but I don't believe that headroom is one of them. I'd check your analog chain.

-R

R- In theory, of course you're right. But in reality, I (and others) have heard the same thing (with or without the analog chain).
b

While I do not have an HD rig, I have to agree with Randy on the mix buss.

The trick I have been trying lately is to create a group of all tracks so that I can pull down the mix as a whole and you can clearly hear when it opens back up. Then I insert an outboard compressor on the master and use it to bring up the gain. Then I BTD.

With that said...The compressors of choice on the mix are SSL and a Summit and that could be a big part of the good-ness I am getting with this trick. I tend to need a fair amount of gain on both of these.

Anyone who work ITB should try to check out what Randy is saying.
It is hard to A/B due to the level change but, to me it is so clear that even at the volume you can hear the mix spread back out. I do not hear any depth but, my mixes since I have been ITB have lacked all depth.




D

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by bobmix

R- In theory, of course you're right. But in reality, I (and others) have heard the same thing (with or without the analog chain).
b

It's really not a big theoretical thing. With 24 bit recording you can bring your individual levels down to the point where you have more headroom than any analog system could aspire to. In other words, when gainstaged properly, a modern digital mix bus will have much more headroom than a properly gainstaged analog mix system. Headroom is a measurable, quantifiable thing, not some euphonic quality.

I'm not questioning that you're hearing something you don't like, just the reason you ascribe to it. I think if you were to create a digital system with, say, three times the headroom of your current digital system, you'd still hear the same thing.

-R

[Jan Folkson]

Like others have mentioned in this thread, I find that the PT 2 bus sounds best (to my ear) at least 6 to 8db down. I make the gain up with a good analog compressor strapped across the 2 bus.

YMMV.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Jan Folkson

Like others have mentioned in this thread, I find that the PT 2 bus sounds best (to my ear) at least 6 to 8db down. I make the gain up with a good analog compressor strapped across the 2 bus.

YMMV.

ok i'm still a little confused.

do you mix so that you are peaking at about -6 and only THEN add the comp and bring the level back up to like -.4 or whatever?

if you are ending up with the 2 bus at -.4 (by making up the gain you lost by pulling back the digital faders by using a compressor) isn't this the same basic problem of hitting the digital 2 bus too hard in the first place?

sorry if i am missing something obvious.

[Jules]

I use

16 Prism ADA outs

To Fulcrom summing device level boosted with API pre amps

To Cranesong STC-8 compressor

To Cranesong Hedd converter

To Masterlink @ 96k 24 bit

[Jan Folkson]

Originally Posted by eligit

ok i'm still a little confused.

do you mix so that you are peaking at about -6 and only THEN add the comp and bring the level back up to like -.4 or whatever?

if you are ending up with the 2 bus at -.4 (by making up the gain you lost by pulling back the digital faders by using a compressor) isn't this the same basic problem of hitting the digital 2 bus too hard in the first place?

sorry if i am missing something obvious.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There are guys here that can give a math lesson, but to my ears, this method sounds better than pushing the 2mix harder.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Jan Folkson

That's exactly what I'm saying. There are guys here that can give a math lesson, but to my ears, this method sounds better than pushing the 2mix harder.

but aren't you STILL pushing the 2 mix (with the comp to add gain)?

2 mix and 2 bus are the same thing, right?

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Jan Folkson

Like others have mentioned in this thread, I find that the PT 2 bus sounds best (to my ear) at least 6 to 8db down. I make the gain up with a good analog compressor strapped across the 2 bus.

YMMV.

I don't think it has anything to do with headroom. I think you just like the sound of the analog amplification. So do I.

-R

[eligit]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I don't think it has anything to do with headroom. I think you just like the sound of the analog amplification. So do I.

-R

a-HA! ok. i think that answers my question. i thought there was some other thing going on besides just raising the gain with the analog comp and that somehow the digital 2 bus doesn't like to be anywhere near 0 no matter how it got there.