Acoustic Stereo Piano vs. Loud Stereo Rock Guitars

[stereomixer]

Anyone have any experience mixing an acoustic Piano with stereo rock guitars (Les Paul marshall one side, Tele through a soldano the other)
I cant seem to get the piano to cut through or hear the seperation with these instruments clearly.Piano is 4 tracks including hammers mixed down to two, Guitars are mono and doubled exactly.
Any recorded or mixed examples I need to hear that exemplifies this exercise? help and ideas appreciated.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Anyone have any experience mixing an acoustic Piano with stereo rock guitars (Les Paul marshall one side, Tele through a soldano the other)
I cant seem to get the piano to cut through or hear the seperation with these instruments clearly.Piano is 4 tracks including hammers mixed down to two, Guitars are mono and doubled exactly.
Any recorded or mixed examples I need to hear that exemplifies this exercise? help and ideas appreciated.

I think it is more in the arrangement. You don't normally want the piano competing with loud guitars.

[stereomixer]

but thanks for the arranging advice.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

but thanks for the arranging advice.

Don't mention it.

You might also listen to Layla a little deeper and see if you can pick up any tricks. Lots of piano and electric guitar going on at the same time in that one.

[DigitMus]

Well, I may be stating the obvious, but a stereo piano doesn't need to be hard panned L & R. I frequently pan it, say, hard left (left channel) and 11 o'clock (right channel) with appropriate level adjustment for the panning law you're using. Then pan your guitars center and hard right - everything has its own space.
Of course the suggestion to adjust the arrangement is right on the money; the mix should stand up when collapsed to mono, not relying on panning - but that's more the producer's bailawick than the mixer's.

Scott

[joeq]

Some things that have worked for me

micro rides on the piano's level- have it pop up into any space that opens up even a few notes at a time. I often draw these in. Its not exactly creating a new arrangement, but it does help to "remind" people that the piano is there.

make the guitars really dry and the piano rather wet, (or vice versa)

add some compression to the piano. desperate times call for desperate measures.

[the1Hub]

try using an eq to boost the piano at a frequency that dose not compete as much with the guitars. kind of like the revrse of carving eq holes, in stead you are punch them in. if you want some ideas of what other engineers facing a similar broblem have done. listen to something corporates cd "north"

[stereomixer]

Forgot to say there were Lead vocals and Backgrounds as well through most of this music that has piano and guitars. Its Busy, gotta watch the panning. I liked the wet/dry idea, Still looking for good mixed examples?

[Jules]

Assuming this is for 'rock music' - Pop the monitoring into mono - then (not soloing, with the whole mix running) EQ the piano to be complimantary to the gtrs, perhaps a lot of compression then high mid boost / bass cut... Should sound fine and dandy when you flip back to stereo..

Balance the piano with your ears & not eyes..? it might not "look" even left & right but might SOUND balanced..

[84K]

Tack Pianos always work well for this, but no one does that anymore....

I record a Hard Rock band that features AC Piano all the time... I find, using different reverbs on the guitars and the piano helps.... eq the reverb... make it sit on top of the reverb on the guitars. I also place the piano panning not hard L-R, but more 80% L - 40% R. I set the reverb level to simulate the piano player's position in that area of the stage... behind the front guys (Lead Vocal, Gtrs, Bass), but closer than the drummer. I compress the piano with fast attack and slow release provided by Pendulum Audio (their opto compressor). Sweet. Oh, I almost forgot... the most important part.. I like a cheap sounding reverb on the piano. I like the nicer verbs on the loud guitars and the cheap verb on the piano... cheaper sounding reverbs help the piano shrill through the beautifully vicious loud guitars and places the image of the piano on the stage better. Hope I can be of help!

I do also agree with the pervious statement regarding arrangement.... that is a big key.... using the mute button in mixing can make the mix. Maybe things need to be broken down a little... ya know, not always 2, or 3 guitars all the time... sometimes just 1.

[roughly]

Check out Paper Chase, this bands does this very well, IMHO. Sometimes it's nice to listen to others work and hear what works or not.


jeffrey

[stereomixer]

Is to mult out the Piano using the brightest side. Leave the other two original tracks in stereo. Place the new extremely compressed rolled off bottom track and put it at around 11'o clock. Voila you have a clear piano track thet does not compete with the stereo guitars anymore and has the definition you need. You can also try the Ivory plug in, that helps too.

[natpub]

have you tried any automated ducking or is everything basically playing full chords at the same time?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Anyone have any experience mixing an acoustic Piano with stereo rock guitars (Les Paul marshall one side, Tele through a soldano the other)
I cant seem to get the piano to cut through or hear the seperation with these instruments clearly.Piano is 4 tracks including hammers mixed down to two, Guitars are mono and doubled exactly.
Any recorded or mixed examples I need to hear that exemplifies this exercise? help and ideas appreciated.

One word...

Compression.

On the piano.

Also you could strap a compressor on a guitar mix buss and have the piano feed the side chain.

The piano will duck the guitars to cut through.

[siegfried]

TriTone Digital PhaseTone to piano. It´s freeware and it´s answer. You´ll be really surprised!

P. S. for good reference mixes search some gothic metal records, eq.
To/Die/For. It´s music where heavy guitars+piano are the main thing.

[Lord Fear]

if its pop rock you are mixing go listen to either Something Corporate album the first was mixed by Tom Lord-Alge and the second mixed by Jim Wirt and Phil Kaffell. Both have some great piano sounds and some loud rock guitars and are generally really thick mix's. Hi-pass everything guitars generally you woln't need anything below at least 150hz maybe even as high as 250-300 depending on the part. as for the piano try a hi-pass to like 100 than compress it with some 1176 ish compression and see how you sit, if you need to give it a slight bump from like 5K - 10K and see how that helps...

[jbuntz]

Originally Posted by roughly

Check out Paper Chase, this bands does this very well, IMHO. Sometimes it's nice to listen to others work and hear what works or not.


jeffrey

I just saw them again a few nights ago for the first time in years. They've got lots of negative space in their songs and a lot of guitarless moments and the piano just plays riffs. Here again, arrangement is the key. Turning the piano up can really zap the energy out of a rock tune if it swallows the guitars. If you set a compressor to enhance the attack without making the sustain go crazy and bumping somewhere in the upper mids to add attack since it's probably not a tack piano (which can sound cheesy so it might be better that it isn't). Just automate up the parts that need to be heard and/or automate the guitars down if the piano does something crazy on a spot.

[KrisNY]

Off topic... how do the Tele and LP sound together? Wild combo!