running an acoustic direct:ever a good sound??

[trock]

Hi

I have a studio comprised of just one room in my house, there are 8 windows, carpet, and a hardwood wall. also outside noises can get in.

so i have been running my taylor 314ce direct into an M-Audio 410

as you would expect this sounds bright and tinny?

i have an avalon M5 and Avalon 747sp also and an AT4050 mic, but for some reasoon the room or whatever i cannot get a good mic sound at all.

i was really just wwondering if anyone does get a great acoustic sound by running direct??

thanks

[tINY]

I've had some good luck using the "para-acoustic" DI from LR Baggs. I've never used it to record in a studio setting, but it sounds great live and in live recordings. I'd bet that with a good, clean pre-amp and a decent parametric EQ you could get similar results.

For reference, I usually use it with a D-28 with an active (no controls, just a buffer amp) EMG bridge pick-up.


-tINY

[Calfee Jones]

That Taylor should sound good. Are you sure that the room isn't making the guitar sound thinner? (additive/subtractive buildup of certain freqs in the room not giving you an accurate sound).

I just ask because the taylors usually sound pretty decent direct. How does it sound in the headphones? Maybe you should look up some articles on room acoustics (a very important subject). Start out by googling "Ethan Winer".

[HudHudson]

I have a 410CE with the built-in Fishman system and it has plenty of balls in the low end. I only record direct when playing scratch trax in the control room but like the other guys said it could be your room. I've had four Taylors over the past eight years and they've all been great recording guitars with plenty of bass response.

[snedley]

Yes,
I've gotten a really nice tone with a Taylor 514 with the Fishman system through an ISA 430.

[neve1073]

Ideally, you would mic your acoustic and use the pickup system to send to your tuner. In your situation it sounds like micing would be a hassle and require some room modifaction and possibly further investment in equipment---but I'd bet it'd be worth it.

Goode lucke

[craigb]

These are about the most natural sounding pickups I have heard. In a live situation they just sound like an amplified guitar, with none of that plastic quack that so many pickups have. A player that I work with has them in both his 6 and 12 string Martin's. With a touch of eq they sound very natural and true to the tone of the guitar.

http://www.kksound.com/purewestern.html

[Drumsound]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Acoustic guitar pick-ups are a necessary evil of the stage!

They are also acceptable for scratch tracks and weirdo sounds.

[the1Hub]

Originally Posted by trock

Hi

so i have been running my taylor 314ce
thanks

wich pickup is it the fishman prefix or the blender or the ES?
if its either of the fishmans i had good luck with this type of setup.
stereo mic the guitar and then run the piezo pickup through a good preamp the m5 will do well. in the mix pan the stereo mics in either direction and put the pickup straight up the middle. roll off the high end of pickup around 1.5 to 2k. as you add more of the pickup to the mix it will bring the guitars image more to the center but still keep the width of the stereo mics. if that makes any sense. basicly a nice full sound.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Acoustic guitar pick-ups are a necessary evil of the stage!

They are also acceptable for scratch tracks and weirdo sounds.

Amen brother Drumsound!

The thing that gives me the willies is that "thump". I know the Fishman system has minimized it, but any (ANY) mic should outperform the pickup.

The only exeption is the way Dave Sharp and Mike Peters from the Alarm did it; with PAF's and Marshalls hooked up to their acoustics.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Acoustic guitar pick-ups are a necessary evil of the stage!

They are also acceptable for scratch tracks and weirdo sounds.

I gotta go with Tony here. To my ear, a good mic will KILL any pickup (assuming good positioning and assuming you actually want it to sound like an acoustic guitar)

YMMV of course.

Like neve1073 says- take the time to get the room and your chain right and you will be glad you did. The benefits will probably carry over to much more than just the acoustic guitar

[trock]

Hey all


thanks for the reply's

Modifying the room really isn't an option right now, however i am looking into some room acoustic boards to put on some mic stand to surround myself some

it is a fishman prefix plus it says

i will just keep trying some with the M5 in the mix and see what i can do

thanks

[Jules]

You can do some DIY accoustic work on the room that is 'childs-play'

Roll in a cothing rail,,

Hang eiderdowns over a row of chairs

Put down a small rug

Make a 'tent' / "cave' out of 3 high mic stands and a blanket

All these might get you closer to a "dead sound" you need in there, good for the acc gtr recording and are what a pro would do if in a "pinch" and they had to work at your place..

hint, you play in FRONT of the soft stuff, with the mic pointing at it

[Boby Stoica]

I have then same 314 Taylor guitar, and the Avalon 747 as well.

Don't overuse the 'brillance' setting - use it carefoully in conjunction with the High freqs. boost. Thath notch filter is pretty useful - you can go up with it's freq, until you get rid of that midrangy sound that you dislike, and then boost just a bit of bass -listen in context, after you record some takes, on it's proper volume, on that particular song, as it is a 'rough' mix - then, you'll know if ya have the proper bass amount, to make it sound bodied, but not like 'mud'.


When I want to go direct (=don't have enough time to mic it..), I use either an Avalon U5 DI, maybe with it's one of the presets EQ curves, or the DI input on my Millenia Media STT1. The Avalon compressor is indeed a bit strident sounding, esp. on it's tube mode - you can use that sidechain on the upper range, to reduce the 'plastic' feeling. Or , if you have a deesser, it can work just as good.The Taylor's sound, however, really shines when you mic it (AND, perhaps, blend it with the direct signal, if this suits your track).

I find the EQ on the Avalon being extremelly useful - try some extreme setting with it, you will be surprised!. Boosting all the bands near to the max. DOES NOT equal turning up the volume. Some things good are hapening when so.And you can just as well turn up by a big amount all the bands and turn down the 5K band just a bit bellow 0db - that, also will improve the over-bright sound, while you keep boosted the 32K. Remember, both 5K and 32k are shelving.. So, if ya cut on the 5K and boosting the 32K, it's just like you cut the 5K by a large bell curve, wich is asimetrical - more on the upper freqs, less on the high-mids.

Hope this helps.

[Sirocco]

Originally Posted by Calfee Jones

Start out by googling "Ethan Winer".

ahah golden. wish someone told me that when i first started!

i always wanted to learn dos!

[trock]

Hey thanks Boby

that is some great info and makes me ahve some hope on the 747 in the direct chain!!

I am going to keep fiddling with it.

i was always told the 747 was more of a mastering tool so i guess i really haven't tried it yet

i am going to use it in conjunction with the M5 and mic this sucker till i get something great. has to be in there somewhere.

thanks all!

[cgarges]

I used to totally think that direct acoustic was good for nothing but the Dave Matthews guitar sound and I still largely adhere to that philosophy. However, I recently heard a recording that a guy I know did in Indianapolis where a Pendulum acouctic preamp was used to combine a piezo and a soundhole pickup. The sound was astounding and after having heard it and commenting about the acoustic guitar sound, I was informed that it was direct. I would NEVER have guessed it was a direct acoustic sound and he even played me another track where the acoustic was indeed miked. My friend swears that the preamp made all the difference. I still conclude that under most circumstances, a direct sounds nothing like an actual acoustic instrument, but I can't wait to record this guy to see how much of that is really the case. (This guy's got no reason to lie to me.) I was pretty amazed. Anybody else heard one of these things?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[trock]

Hey thats interesting

i emailed Pendulum and told them about my issue and had asked about the Quartet

the owner emailed me back and suggested the PRE and the COMP together as a front end

a little out of my price range but i might try the pre at some point as a direct unit

i have heard good things about pendulum

[cgarges]

I'm not sure if it's the same Pendulum. Could be, but I'm not sure. This is a single rack space, two-channel acoustic instrument preamp.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[cgarges]

My mistake. Yep, it's this one right here:

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/SPS-1.html

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[trock]

SWEET!!

yeah i was looking at that one

they also suggestef this

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/MDP-1.html

ad the comp/limiter

that one you mention is in my price range

i would like to try it

[warhead]

I heard Melissa Ethridge used some DI sounds on some fairly recent studio recordings? Could be wrong, or it was maybe some live stuff?

I think DI acoustic sounds are horrible and quite unnatural. Of course, they would have to sound unnatural considering pickup placement etc!

But a guy I did some scratch tracks with recently brought in a Martin (dunno the model) with a small condensor inside pointing up at the strings that actually sounded pretty nice. He could blend between a standard pickup and the mic.

The only thing that sucked is he would blend with the mic while I was playing drums and it would pick up my drum sounds which of course sounded horrible on the track. But yeah, that Martin system wasn't bad.

Nothing beats a mic in the room though.

War

[excellrec]

I am fairly partial to acoustic d.i. sounds myself.... if you look at like it's something thats striving to sound like a mic'ed acoustic.. then yes.. they are usually failing miserably at that.. but if you look at it like it's just another sound entirely.. then i thik it sounds good when it is appropriate.. it's all you damn purists now isnt it.

[trock]

thats a good way to look at it

i emailed pendulum again to see if i can demo the SPS-1

i really don't care how i get the sound i want, but i know the sound i want.

[Hobbyist]

Have you made sure the tone control/eq on the guitar is flat? Taylors usually have decent direct sounds as long as the eq isn't messed with. It's not a pair of 582s, but it's certainly a decent sound.

Also, I've heard of some guys using IR's to sample the resonance and characteristics of great guitars and use them to salvage direct sounds.

[trock]

i have tried alot with this fishman eq

i have not tried it flat

maybe i will do that tomorrow and than EQ it in the mix

[neve1073]

I'm sorry but Jyoder is cuter than excellrec IMHO.

[alphajerk]

why do i always want to plug in a acoustic pickup into an amp and mic that? its just automatic for me to do that now [plus mic the acoustic traditionally]... musta been from that time i saw grant lee buffalo live.

[shikawkee]

Robert Derby of Valvotronics and I are working on a box specifically for acoustics and basses for live gigging and studio (the Coil EQ/DI). The protos are out now. It definitely is a challenge to get a really great DI signal in live situations that's also usable for recordings. I've tried the Pendulum stuff and it's really quite good.

[shikawkee]

P.S.-I'm also partial to Pick-Up-the-World contact mic pickups for the most realistic reproduction of acoustic DI sound. A good soundhole magnetic would be my second choice (or used in combo with the first).