Proof that a lot of us are wrong.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, but what happened to my nemesis Franky? All f his posts have been deleted. Was he banned? What do he do?

[thenoodle]

Cool thread. I hadn't heard the song and just listened to it. I'm SURE I'm too old on this one. Very hard to reinvent pop music stuff while old-timers are around for sure. Anyway, this one didn't do anything for me, although I don't dispute that it works for others.

At the song level ...

Each sectiion reminds me of a snip of what has come before in other eras. The short drum intro is the thingee you hear at ballgames that is from that old 70's song (whatever that was). Then the verse changes are direct from a few dozen other songs that have come many times before. The chorus is about note-for-note like 4 or 5 other songs that were also borrowed from each other in the 60's-70's (this'll be interesting for old timers ....name the songs. I'll check back to see if we're all remembering the same ones even down to the melody).

I'm not knockin it. I'm just saying that I had a hard time appreciating the beat, changes, and melody because they instantly bring up all the other songs I've already heard these in. Cuz I'm OLD of course. Anyway ....

I didn't like the instrument choices. Didn't do anything for me as those sounds are routine 1983-88 sounds. Which I personally became tired of in 1983-88.

The vocal style is definitely early 21st century pop flavor that was popular back then (oh yeah ...we're still there).

I didn't really get anything from the production. It was ....production.


I don't condemn the song in any way. It just didn't do anything for me. On the other hand, I COMPLETELY support the validity of the song, its melody, its construction, and its production. Because SOMEONE liked it. Beginning with the first poster. And no doubt, millions of others.

Which then makes the song very valid in my eyes. Even if the singer's mother had been the only one who ever liked the record.

It is so fantastic that we can make music that goes on and on and is essentially always based on the limited notes and chords at our disposal. That people continually LIKE. Even sometimes for we OLD guys. This song/record just wasn't one of those for me.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by thenoodle

Cool thread. I hadn't heard the song and just listened to it. I'm SURE I'm too old on this one. Very hard to reinvent pop music stuff while old-timers are around for sure. Anyway, this one didn't do anything for me, although I don't dispute that it works for others.

At the song level ...

Each sectiion reminds me of a snip of what has come before in other eras. The short drum intro is the thingee you hear at ballgames that is from that old 70's song (whatever that was). Then the verse changes are direct from a few dozen other songs that have come many times before. The chorus is about note-for-note like 4 or 5 other songs that were also borrowed from each other in the 60's-70's (this'll be interesting for old timers ....name the songs. I'll check back to see if we're all remembering the same ones even down to the melody).

I'm not knockin it. I'm just saying that I had a hard time appreciating the beat, changes, and melody because they instantly bring up all the other songs I've already heard these in. Cuz I'm OLD of course. Anyway ....

I didn't like the instrument choices. Didn't do anything for me as those sounds are routine 1983-88 sounds. Which I personally became tired of in 1983-88.

The vocal style is definitely early 21st century pop flavor that was popular back then (oh yeah ...we're still there).

I didn't really get anything from the production. It was ....production.


I don't condemn the song in any way. It just didn't do anything for me. On the other hand, I COMPLETELY support the validity of the song, its melody, its construction, and its production. Because SOMEONE liked it. Beginning with the first poster. And no doubt, millions of others.

Which then makes the song very valid in my eyes. Even if the singer's mother had been the only one who ever liked the record.

It is so fantastic that we can make music that goes on and on and is essentially always based on the limited notes and chords at our disposal. That people continually LIKE. Even sometimes for we OLD guys. This song/record just wasn't one of those for me.

Nicely put.

Nick

[Guitarmory]

Nick you are hilarious... stirring shit up on GS just like in real life. I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere in this lengthy thread, bit I think it's a good mix as a result of picking key elements and featuring them prominently as opposed to having too much going on. Great arrangement.

Probably would have sounded better if it hadn't been mastered though, eh?

Ryan (yes that Ryan)

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Yeah, but what happened to my nemesis Franky? All f his posts have been deleted. Was he banned? What do he do?

Franky went to Hollywood and lives in the qoutes on this forum...

[MagnumXK]

hey, for those saying they are too old, im 22 and this song is one of the worst i have heard in a while. I usually wouldn't post any negative comments on gearslutz but this song drives me crazy when I hear it on tv or anywhere. I think the production is great but the lyrics and melody sound like something a 14 year old girl with no musical abilities came up with. I can see how engineers/producers would be into it just because they are hearing things from a different perspective but I do hate where the music industry is going when it comes to tracks like this. I also saw a video of her live and she was horrible but the fans and the crowd seemed to think differently, being able to sing or perform doesn't really matter much anymore. I am not trying to offend anyone, music is just taste, I think I just dont get this kind of tune.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Guitarmory

Nick you are hilarious... stirring shit up on GS just like in real life. I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere in this lengthy thread, bit I think it's a good mix as a result of picking key elements and featuring them prominently as opposed to having too much going on. Great arrangement.

Probably would have sounded better if it hadn't been mastered though, eh?

Ryan (yes that Ryan)

...who me stirring up shit?....just trying to give some props to the dude who mixed it....doesn't everything sound better before it's mastered?...

...kidding, already stirred ...errr rather...started that thread.

Nick

PS I'm afraid I can't admit to knowing any Ryan (with 4 posts)...how will I be able to anonymously stir up shit then?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by MagnumXK

hey, for those saying they are too old, im 22 ....... but I do hate where the music industry is going when it comes to tracks like this. I also saw a video of her live and she was horrible but the fans and the crowd seemed to think differently, being able to sing or perform doesn't really matter much anymore. I am not trying to offend anyone, music is just taste, I think I just dont get this kind of tune.

fair enough...tell us which song you wrote, produced and or mixed that I may (or may not) have heard of..I'd like to analyze the production value for you..remember...it's easy to cut someone down...anyone can do it.....

Nick

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

fair enough...tell us which song you wrote, produced and or mixed that I may (or may not) have heard of..I'd like to analyze the production value for you..remember...it's easy to cut someone down...anyone can do it.....

Nick

this is moronic. if you are allowed to praise the song, others should be allowed to criticize it. you are no more qualified to rate the song than anyone else is.

so where are your songs for us to analyze? and while we're at it, where are siskel and ebert's oscar winning movies? and when did don cherry ever score a stanley cup wining goal?

the notion that anyone needs to have a certain level of success to be allowed to like/dislike something is absurd.

personally i think this song is a juvenile attempt to cash in on stupid adolescent fantasies. it's transparent and obvious in the worst ways. i also think the production's lame and perry's a weak singer at best.

my only qualification to venture that opinion is that i have ears.

it seems like you're saying 'it's popular and i like it, so everyone else should agree that it's awesome'. but that makes no sense. people buy mcdonald's in droves. are you going to tell us that somehow proves doctors are wrong, and fast food is actually good for us?.

all katy perry 'proves' is that the masses like junk, for their ears as much as for their mouths. nothing new there. it doesn't prove it's good for anyone. personally, i feel dumber every time i hear it. i guess, by your logic, that's proof that a lot of us are right.

[Niv]

there is nothing stunning production-wise (solid indierock), but its one of the few recent popular songs that at least is a bit catchy and the singer seems bit stronger than many of the usual puppets (though it really annoys to hear the chorus a tenth time within the first two minutes). but taking this as complete reference for all what a track consists of is way... fatalist.

[gearaddict]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

this is moronic. if you are allowed to praise the song, others should be allowed to criticize it. you are no more qualified to rate the song than anyone else is.

so where are your songs for us to analyze? and while we're at it, where are siskel and ebert's oscar winning movies? and when did don cherry ever score a stanley cup wining goal?

the notion that anyone needs to have a certain level of success to be allowed to like/dislike something is absurd.

personally i think this song is a juvenile attempt to cash in on stupid adolescent fantasies. it's transparent and obvious in the worst ways. i also think the production's lame and perry's a weak singer at best.

my only qualification to venture that opinion is that i have ears.

it seems like you're saying 'it's popular and i like it, so everyone else should agree wthat it's awesome'. but that makes no sense. people buy mcdonald's in droves. are you going to tell us that somehow proves doctors are wrong, and fast food is actually good for us?.

all katy perry 'proves' is that the masses like junk, for their ears as much as for their mouths. nothing new there. it doesn't prove it's good for anyone. personally, i feel dumber every time i hear it. i guess, by your logic, that's proof that a lot of us are right.

I agree....But the funny thing is...I have read this whole post and I just laugh at the people the think the mixer/gear had anything to do with this song being a hit...you see this so much around here and it's bs..that song would have hit if she played it on an acoustic guitar and sang....it's the words, the title that gets the little teens to like it..it's the song. To many engineers like to take credit for a song hitting when it would have hit if it was recorded on a cassette tape...a catchy song will be catchy no matter how it was recorded or what it was recorded with!!!

[Chucho]

the funny thing is that there are a bunch of pop songs with MUCH better mixes around.
this one annoys the hell out of me.

[butterfly]

that song would have hit if she played it on an acoustic guitar and sang....it's the words, the title that gets the little teens to like it..it's the song

...........................highly unlikely......dream on.

[memphisindie]

Wow, it really IS a theme! My 11 yer olds liked it,,, for a minute! HA! It sucks.
Yeah, that "engineer" really cut and pasted it well, I see your point Nick.
Irony, I get it. Sarcasm.
Man, they took you serious. Hey, I'm not that good at cut and paste! Really, I'm not.
The song is a hit because it requires no thought to listen to. It has a melodic hook and interesting theme but, nothing that will last more than 5 minutes, oops, it's already over. Too bad. I heard it, I saw her live, I'm in the hospital being awoken from my coma by artificial stimulants.
Yeah, it was that bad.
Opinions differ, sorry.

[nickynicknick]

blah blah blah...can't believe you guys are still flapping about how much better you are than the folks that made the Katy Perry record...get over yourselves please..they all did a great job....obviously.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

blah blah blah...can't believe you guys are still flapping about how much better you are than the folks that made the Katy Perry record...get over yourselves please..they all did a great job....obviously.

'good job' is subjective. mass consumption is not a criteria for me. if it is for you that's fine, but that's only your perspective. by your logic, the burger flipper at my local mcdonald's must be a culinary master, since so many people keep eating there. i would strongly disagree. and my critical opinion of someone else's work has no relation to my opinion of my own.

as for 'bla bla bla'? nick, if you don't want to aggravate people for 12 pages, don't start threads that reference your opinion as 'proof' of anything except your subjective opinion, and then post back over and over to flippantly disparage anyone who disagrees.

there is a term for this kind of baiting. it's called trolling. and based on all this, maybe you need to get over yourself.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

blah blah blah...can't believe you guys are still flapping about how much better you are than the folks that made the Katy Perry record...get over yourselves please..they all did a great job....obviously.

Yes you're right, it IS over already.
Hey Nick, really, some of us just serve different market segments than you do at your age serving the group you do. We may have done similar things with a razor blade when we could, serving a younger audience which does not appreciate the nuance of a more seasoned artist.
Many young artists and professionals are vying for legitimacy before their elders. It's a different skillset than would be used on your type or style of music. I'm sure most of us old flappy types did the same kind of things. It's ok to have an opinion about the music style/genre you currently work in.
I don't work in that market anymore. after a while, you get a little older, and you start to hear the lack of dynamics, the the lack of talent, see the lack of money, exposure hopefully teaches you more about the art of music maybe a trip to the library or better yet house of worship to a learned person. Someone like a music clergy staff could teach you the ancient ways and why's of some of it. That will give you a clue to a new paradigm about music and what it's possibilities are for fixing what you broke in the world by enabling talentless hacks to proliferate (we all did, ever heard "teenage fanclub?") then you start hearing artists with a message, not necessarily religious, and some that marry it all together well. Then POP becomes less important to you. We old guys should be asking you our long list of questions while you still know everything, before you get too old and forget it all.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

We old guys should be asking you our long list of questions while you still know everything, before you get too old and forget it all.

the relevance of age is overplayed imo too. i'm two years older than katy. when i was 15 years old the equivalent audience types that make up her fanbase were listening to backstreet boys and spice girls. the closest i came to liking a boyband was probably silverchair.

disposable pop forms a pretty constant genre - there's always a core audience of vapid teens to feed it. but personally i couldn't stand the stuff any more a decade ago than i can now. it's a matter of personal taste, not age.

but to each his/her own i suppose.

[MagnumXK]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

fair enough...tell us which song you wrote, produced and or mixed that I may (or may not) have heard of..I'd like to analyze the production value for you..remember...it's easy to cut someone down...anyone can do it.....

Nick

I think audiovisceral has said it better than I could have. I am a student in college studying business managment and have nothing to do with the industry from a professional perspective, I just really enjoy recording and making songs, my best microphone currently is a rode nt1a so i am sure you will be less than impressed with my production skills but that has nothing to do with what I said about the song. Last time I checked gearslutz is built from opinions of people. I also mentioned that I did enjoy the production but ofcoarse with that kind of money put into it I dont think any artist would have problems getting a song to sound that good. I just think there are alot of people out there that are much more talented that will never see 1/8 of the fame and money she is making. Shows you that there are some very smart business men behind desks that are running the show.

[Niv]

Originally Posted by gearaddict

it's the words, the title that gets the little teens to like it..it's the song. To many engineers like to take credit for a song hitting when it would have hit if it was recorded on a cassette tape...

thats true finally. but lots of little engineers who never were into music for real would fight this as usual.

[butterfly]

thats true finally. but lots of little engineers who never were into music for real would fight this as usual.

............................I dont't know, maybe you guys have just woken up after being asleep for 40 years but the rest of us who live in 2008 might have issues with that.

1. Katie Perry can't really sing, so a casette recording of her would probably get tossed in the bin before it gort past the AnR guy, unless she included a nude phot and a promise.
2. Would I want to hear the track sung even by someone who could sing accompanied just by an accoustic guitar......don't think so, it's not that good a song.
3. Like anything else which achieves mainstream sucess, the bottom line here is marketing and budget. So you would pretty foolish to spend x amount of dollars on advertising, payola etc and then release a home demo on cassette tape.
4. The importance of the mix engineer. A recent track featuring Flo rida and T-Pain had already been in the clubs and on radio.......but it wasn't hitting.......canny AnR guy knew he had a hit on his hands, just not the right mix........gives it to A list mixer and the rest as they say is history.

Welcome to the world of pop music gentlemen and 2008.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by MagnumXK

I think audiovisceral has said it better than I could have. I am a student in college studying business managment and have nothing to do with the industry from a professional perspective, I just really enjoy recording and making songs, my best microphone currently is a rode nt1a so i am sure you will be less than impressed with my production skills but that has nothing to do with what I said about the song. Last time I checked gearslutz is built from opinions of people. I also mentioned that I did enjoy the production but ofcoarse with that kind of money put into it I dont think any artist would have problems getting a song to sound that good. I just think there are alot of people out there that are much more talented that will never see 1/8 of the fame and money she is making. Shows you that there are some very smart business men behind desks that are running the show.

Nick's quote is not valid, I've seen many producers pick out a hot chic to do with a promise and there is also a "girls only club", a "guy's only club", If you were cute, in the biz, and got a proposition you had a career on the way, regardless of whether your talent was worth spit. You don't have to have a hit to smell crap or know crap when you see it.
As far as smart business men behind the board, well, there as so much abuse, before the accountants came out from behind their desks and ruined things "their way", that they had to do something. They got just as drunk on fame and star-struck, and greedy, and lecherous as their predecessors. Since they knew absolutely nothing about true talent, that whole side has gone straight down the tubes since they took over.
If you like autotune, you'd love accounting.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Yes you're right, it IS over already.
Hey Nick, really, some of us just serve different market segments than you do at your age serving the group you do. We may have done similar things with a razor blade when we could, serving a younger audience which does not appreciate the nuance of a more seasoned artist.
Many young artists and professionals are vying for legitimacy before their elders. It's a different skillset than would be used on your type or style of music. I'm sure most of us old flappy types did the same kind of things. It's ok to have an opinion about the music style/genre you currently work in.
I don't work in that market anymore. after a while, you get a little older, and you start to hear the lack of dynamics, the the lack of talent, see the lack of money, exposure hopefully teaches you more about the art of music maybe a trip to the library or better yet house of worship to a learned person. Someone like a music clergy staff could teach you the ancient ways and why's of some of it. That will give you a clue to a new paradigm about music and what it's possibilities are for fixing what you broke in the world by enabling talentless hacks to proliferate (we all did, ever heard "teenage fanclub?") then you start hearing artists with a message, not necessarily religious, and some that marry it all together well. Then POP becomes less important to you. We old guys should be asking you our long list of questions while you still know everything, before you get too old and forget it all.

A little newsflash for you guys especially you (above)...this is rock n' roll we are talking about...since when was it about being really prolific (Rolling Stones are the biggest hacks in the world)....holy shit you guys are full of yourselves..all it has to do is rock..and it does...obviously.... right AUDIO whatever your face is?

Nick


PS Were you really trying to educate me there with that post (above)?....let's see If I heve this straight...I'm being closed minded because I think this song is done really well? and because 50 million other people like it too? Oh wait....only people that are more enlightened can really appreciate music... the average joe can't because they weren't educated...do I have that right? I can't appreciate anything really important because I like Katy Perry?.....interesting point of view

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

A little newsflash for you guys especially you (above)...this is rock n' roll we are talking about

Uh, I bet Katy Perry falls under bubble gum.

...since when was it about being really prolific (Rolling Stones are the biggest hacks in the world)....

How many songs were on the some girls album?

holy shit you guys are full of yourselves..all it has to do is rock..and it does...obviously.... right AUDIO whatever your face is?

Nick

PS Were you really trying to educate me there with that post (above)?....let's see If I heve this straight...I'm being closed minded because I think this song is done really well? and because 50 million other people like it too? Oh wait....only people that are more enlightened can really appreciate music... the average joe can't because they weren't educated...do I have that right? I can't appreciate anything really important because I like Katy Perry?.....interesting point of view

That POV came 100% from you, no one ever said that about you.
This is the quote I was refering to being "not valid":

=nickynicknick
blah blah blah...can't believe you guys are still flapping about how much better you are than the folks that made the Katy Perry record...get over yourselves please..they all did a great job....obviously.

No, Nick, I was pointing out that people who post that they don't like this tune probably work in a different market segment and don't do their mixing for the same customer that would like "I kissed a girl" and probably wouldn't mix that style.
Just so you know, when I heard the song I thought, "wow, so did I", but, I'm a guy so it wasn't so weird to me. My kids however were a little taken aback.
I have nothing against Katy Perry, but, it is what it is and it ain't what it ain't, I don't think engineers can be buffaloed into believing something is what it ain't without some substantial CHEEZ my friend.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

..., I don't think engineers can be buffaloed into believing something is what it ain't without some substantial CHEEZ my friend.

Buffaloed into believing?..wow.....number of songs on Some Girls? Who cares? I like Zeppelin II as well, but I don't know how many songs are on that...is this some kind of requirement one needs to be an engineer?...listen this is stupid...you sound like you've been around a while...I got a question totally off topic...if you know about tape...what is the best scenario for rock beds? 2 inch 15ips with noise reduction or without and which kind? i think i'll start a new thread. Peace brother.

nick