The Used guitar tones...

[dreamaudio]

So I heard this album...(The Used, whatever the newest album eis)...I was curioius as if to anyone knew how they got these amazing tones...Not looking for like: starts with the amp, player, blah blah...I know this....but...what the hell...those guitar tones are ****ing amazing...HUGE...anyone know ANYTHING abou tthis?

Not really trying to do guitar tones right now...but i was very curious.

thx all
brian

[ixnys]

I know it was produced by John Feldman (MEST, The Used, Story of The Year). I know he has his own home studio and does everything digital. So the album was probably recorded there as well. So if you do a search on him and the band, you might come up with some info.

I'm pretty sure guitars were gibsons through mesa boogie amps.

[daeve]

i've seen pictures of the guitarist set up live and if my eyes dont decieve me he has a tricked out PRS split into a JCM900 and JCM800 cabs might have been orange (memory is a little hasy) the only thing i could see changing for the recording is maybe a different gtr here and there or maybe a botique amp. then again i could be wrong about he whole thing :)

dave

[tunasafedolphin]

Is it me or do those tones actually sound a little bland and basic? Feel a little more less organic and a bit more like a distortion wall...

[daeve]

when they arent drowned out by the bass and the vocals even still its a pretty solid album

[tunasafedolphin]

Those albums drive me kinda nuts actually. Lots of production, but IMO the mix and the tones suck - especially the drums. Especially the last record, it's almost like a masterclass on how to use Beat Detective, Sound Replacer, and the grid in ProlTools to remove all organic qualities whatsoever...When I'm listening to the stuff it takes me a bit of time to get past it - it's almost like fingernails on a chalkboard.

Again, just my opinion.

-tuna

[teagerto]

i don't care for the tones, but i record a lot of them for bands that want that heavy, rip your head off sound. they lack any dynamics whatsoever and just do not sound natural. nonetheless, to get tones like that, usually dual amp. have one amp to cover the mids, and one with scooped mids to bring the heaviness. then you can cross mix between the two in post production. record at unbelievably loud levels and then squash the hell out of it with compression and you're set!

i've thrown a klon centaur infront of a rectified amp (not mesa) and it really brought the kick. a good investment for that heavy sound.

be sure not to scoop your mids too much. that's why i suggest having one amp with scooped mids and one without, so that if you decide they're lacking, you can bring them out with the second track. a lot of people that want that heavy sound scoop they're mids and then wonder why they're guitar doesn't sound full. it's because they're missing a good couple thousand Hz from their tone!!!

Lastly, roll off your the bass on the guitar levels. leave that space for the bass guitar and kick drum to fill in. otherwise, the low end of the mix will just get way too muddy and floppy sounding. Play around with a HPF with the cuttoff between 70 and 200 Hz.

The end.

[teagerto]

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

Is it me or do those tones actually sound a little bland and basic? Feel a little more less organic and a bit more like a distortion wall...

it's definitely NOT just you!!

[Winey]

Originally Posted by teagerto

it's definitely NOT just you!!

No definetely not.
These records are lifeless IMO.
Someone brought in the first record once and I remember thinking it was the worst Pro Tools abuse I'd ever heard.
Love the toms cutting off with the bad gating/editing too.

[withintheflux]

John uses Hughes and Ketner boutique amps. I am not sure what mics he uses for guitars but I know most of his pres are Vintech 1073's. Some of the guitars are shecter Tele copies.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

Especially the last record, it's almost like a masterclass on how to use Beat Detective, Sound Replacer, and the grid in ProlTools to remove all organic qualities whatsoever

(quote) when they arent drowned out by the bass and the vocals even still its a pretty solid album (another quote)

Agreed -- the guitars seem low on the record, and every snare hit sounds the same. ("In Love And Death")

BUT I like the record, and it clearly inspires a lot of people (I've had clients use it as a starting point to represent where they visualize their sound(s) going). I think a lot of gearslutz will hear the record and not get past track #2 because the Pro-Tooling will turn them off. They're missing out. The songs and vocal performances are really, really cool. ("If you feel like dying you might wanna SIIIIIIIIING!")

[tunasafedolphin]

Just to clarify - I am aware that the concept of "BAD" is qualitative. It's very unlikely that I'd go so far as to say that The Used records aren't good, they're just not my cup of tea. In all reality, I do enjoy certain aspects of the production - some of it is VERY creative. However, what I should have clarified in my post is that in order to enjoy any of their recordings (which I have in the past) I first have to get past my extreme dislike for the tones/sounds and the overal robotic feel.

It should also be noted that I have made records with a similar vibe because the situation called for it, but I usually do everything I possibly can to avoid samples and beat detective as it tends to squash all life from a song. Unfortunately, bad musicans make records, and ProTools can make them better. It's also my job as their Producer to use all of my "magical powers" to create a record that is the best possible - and in the world of recording today we can make them better than they actually are. Nothing kills a recording like a shitty drummer, and a crappy lifeless edited and sampled drum track is still better than using a drum recording where the drummer sounds like he is playing on large mushrooms because he sucks.

What a rant!

-Tuna

[the1Hub]

I cant stand the sounds of the first album. especialy the drums can we say samples and gating form hell? the worst part about it is iam an egineer in Utah (hey dont make fun of me to much we do some killer clasical music here) all of the screamo bands here, wich there are plenty of here, all come to the studio and say i wanna sound like the used. my response back to them is go somewhere else. (unless i need the cashhttp://gearslutz.com/board/newreply.php3?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=293422# ) its almost a shame since there are many bands in that same genrea of music that are just as good if not better. (if you care to check any out heres a short list, New Transit Direction, Day Two, Her Candane.) anyways thats enough ranting. Last i saw live, Quinn had Mesa Triple rects Marshall and mesa cabs its been a while but i think i even saw an orange setup. Guitars were les paul cst, prs cst and a telecaster. but again that was live nearly a year ago right after they finished tracking the new album In Love and Death. Must pros here know that anything goes in the studio so they could have used anything as long as it got the sound they wanted.
"Nothing kills a recording like a shitty drummer" in his defence ive seen them 3 times since they were another shitty local band to about a year ago. (thank God i never had to buy a ticket) he has come along way i would even dare to say he is the best thing going on in that band. i think he gets a bad rap because of the production on the albums.

[LongWave]

ive seen them live. the drummer is very very good. i love the used, but i hate the drums on this new album. i think the first album's drums sound better. this album, it just sounds like a set of vdrums!

john also spends a lot of time infront of auto tune and i think he'll sit there and work on each note or somethign...

when i saw them live, i saw a bunch of TC Intonaters in the rack aswell.

[teagerto]

you can really hear the autotune pumping on some of the songs. i don't have the album, but have seen the videos on tv, and even in the singles you hear it when the singer gets into his characteristic higher register.

[RoundBadge]

The used are just a perfect example of all the current bad production trends:Autotune,soundmisplacer
Beatraper,Grid ,Grid,Grid!
Dynamics?not really

Listen to the live Zep dvd..thats about it
same band playing live in the studio, just as they would on stage
real drums ..no samples
real vox ..no autotune
real feel ..no note for note emotion sucking grid editing

just another opinion

[LongWave]

the used arent led zeppelin though.

[dreamaudio]

thx for the replies...I agree with most of ur posts...I can stand the music for 10 seconds..then i get mad. It's funny that Mr. feldman uses all the same samples on every record he does...very sterile..and EVERY hit is BONK BONK BONK BONK BONK BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM...No inbetween. My quest is...how does he beat detective it so well...that you can't hear crossfades in overheads?? Or do you think they rework the cymbals in?? Was always curious about this.

Hey if any of you guys have the royer 122, have you dared put it on a loud guitar amp? i really want to try...but i know it can't handle much.

[daeve]

Last time i heard the royer had an spl limit of 135 but you'll definatly want to use it with and spl meter. also i think i read that he uses a C12 on gtrs.

[LongWave]

i read that too.

can someone explain this.

if he's using samples (which he obviously is), how does he handle like rolls which are sometimes part of fills?

[himey77]

A guy I know, Bob Bryar (who is now the drummer for My Chemical Romance), used to do FOH for The Used. His work can be heard on the live CD of the Maybe Memories disc. They sounded way better live than they did on their commercial releases when he did sound for them. The guitars are slamming on the first track of Maybe Memories. You can hear heavy auto-tuning on their cd's and Bob confirmed that they had a couple of Auto-Tune and TC units in their live rig. I love the band, but their second disc is.... um... not so good, and the mix is trashy and undefined. Kind of like My Chemical Romance live.....

[LongWave]

well that confirms it, i defo saw tc intonaters at the show i was at!

[johnjm22]

Originally Posted by dreamaudio

My quest is...how does he beat detective it so well...that you can't hear crossfades in overheads?? Or do you think they rework the cymbals in?? Was always curious about this..

I have always wondered the same thing? Does anyone have any info on this?

[ixnys]

Beat detective works well as long as the player is close enough to being on beat, and if anything plays a little slower rather than faster. If the person is close enough, you'll hardly hear that the performace has been BT'd except for the fact that it has perfect timing.

[m1xb0y]

Not that this has crapola do to with the Used Guitar tones, but yeah, BD works (obviously) better with a tighter drummer.

Although to say it works better if they're slower than faster confuses me a bit. If the drummer is behind the beat a bit, wont they have to speed up to get back on top?

Haw haw,

Anyhoo,

BD needs to be checked, and spanked, and slapped into submission. Again, less work with a good drummer, but still, check every cut on every region, every cross-fade (with smoothin) and for the most part - dont expect to NOT have to do alot of manual editing aswell.

I generally leave all fills and toms from BD and do them manually.
Same with Hat's and the ride. (You can control the "groove" more that way - what's left of it.)

As for cymballs etc, play around with how far back you can drag the region(s) to make the edit less obvious. Try editing a few bars of drums completely by hand aswell and you'll get a better feel what can be done with some messing around.

Now comes the destruction of music posts i guess.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by LongWave

the used arent led zeppelin though.

uhhhhhh. are you sure? better double check

[dreamaudio]

Originally Posted by daeve

Last time i heard the royer had an spl limit of 135 but you'll definatly want to use it with and spl meter. also i think i read that he uses a C12 on gtrs.

Interesting...never heard of anyone use c12 on guits...just mostly on female vox. outta try that. ;)

[ixnys]

Originally Posted by m1xb0y

Although to say it works better if they're slower than faster confuses me a bit. If the drummer is behind the beat a bit, wont they have to speed up to get back on top?

I don't even use BD that much except for maybe transient seperation. I like to edit drums manually to make sure there aren't any spikes in the crossfades. Anyways it's better if the drummer plays slower because if they play faster, when you go to align transients to the grid if they played a roll too fast for instance, when you go to crossfade you'll have the prior hit in the crossfade as well. Basically it won't sound smooth. If they played slower, there is enough time seperation between the hits so the crossfade are clean. A little confusing to explain.

Anyways, I'm more into playing loops a couple times and then choosing the loop with the best feel that doesn't require BD editing.

[shane]

this is from guitar world. i thought it was interesting. (john feldmann is the guy who produced the Used's new album "In Love and Death")

Guitar World : Quantegy, the last company to manufacture reel-to-reel recording tape, recently closed it's doors. As a result, analog recording is no longer an option. Are you concerned about that? Or, as someone who operates a digital studio, are you at peace?

John Feldmann: I'm Fine. Analog tape is like the dinosaurs, and there are only about four or five people holding onto it as a viable format. You can already get eight or nine plug-ins, like McDSP's Analog Channel, that model tap compression and tape artifacts really well. So if you really have to add that sound to your tracks, it's totally feasible. Plus, I'm 37, and i grew up on vinyl and the non-CD formats, and on a deep subconcious level, i'm used to how analog formats sound. Nowadays, though kids are listening to records made digitally, like Marilyn Manson's and Linkin Park's, that have a big digital sound. To them, tape sounds muffled or noisy, not warm and analog.


well, Wilco never seemed Muffled and Noisy to me! that just sort of..annoyed me. to see someone bash tape like that. i mean, i'm only 16, and i don't really OWN any recording equipment (But lord do i read about it!),and that offended me!

oh, i got so worked up with that, i forgot to say what he uses on the guitar tones. for rhythm tracks, a Hughes & Kettner Duotone head. and a JCM800 with a 4x12 with celestion greenbacks that he uses for "almost everything". he mics the cabs with Shure Beta 57's, and a Sennheiser 451 for the "lower-midrange growl". Vintech X73 preamps for the mics on the distorted guitars.