Love, Hate and Mixbuss Comp/Limit Plugins

[max cooper]

I'm still mixing ITB when I work on stuff at home; I do some stuff that's so small in scale that the end result will likely be CDR's for the bands to sell their skater pals at shows. After realizing that these guys aren't going to take this stuff to a mastering engineer, I'm thinking that just a little of what I can do towards that goal is better than nothing (maybe). I'm thinking it's time to go out and get a couple of whatever are the best mixbuss comp or limiter plugins, and I'm not sure I know what all the options are. I have the UA Precision Limiter (I like it so far) and I have Maxim (one of two Digi plugins I've actually left on a mix...the other being D-Fi). So what else do you guys use, and how do you like it? More importantly, what's the best way to give 'em a useable finished product without doing more damage than good? I'm NOT trying to cut ME's out of the loop here, I always tell 'em it's not done until it's mastered, but I'm talking about the little bitty projects that I KNOW aren't gonna make it to a good ME. I did a search on this, but I didn't come up with a thread about dynamics plugins specifically for mixbuss use. Thanks! Oh...OS X in RTAS land here, but I have an RTAS/VST wrapper since I have all the UAD stuff, so I'm open to VST suggestions.

[Jamz]

Waves native mastering bundle. However, it is DSP hungary.

[007]

I used to think the Waves L2 was the s*** until my ears became more tuned and experienced, at which point I now feel like it's crap. Maybe I'm going nuts, but it seems to add some high end coloration with zero gain reduction applied, simply strapped across the buss. Start squeezing and I realize it's not as transparent as I once made it out to be....

[Ruudman]

Don't hit me , but I'm trying out Ozone 3 now, and I think I like it!
With soft hands, it gives decent results.
Ok, I'm outta' here


ruudman

[beechstudio]

Yeah......the L2 really screws with the sound! I wouldn't recommend it!

[joeq]

Originally Posted by max cooper

but I'm talking about the little bitty projects that I KNOW aren't gonna make it to a good ME. .

I use T-Racks Standalone for this purpose. Having the "mastering" be a separate process in different software (rather than stuff I strap across the mix bus) helps me get a little more distance from the project I just finished recording, editing and mixing. And thinking more like an ME. I also think it sounds pretty good for what it is, and the controls are simple enough to keep you from getting too tweaky.

I know what you mean about trying to get young or impoverished bands to go for real mastering. I work with an ME who will do a quickie on one song for cheap, and if I can persuade them to try that, sometimes the light bulb goes on.

If it doesn't, then I do it in T-Racks. And at least one song has Real mastering.

[nukmusic]

I found Maxim to be very noisey when compared to L2

[Albert]

Elemental Audio has a new limiter plugin out, called the "Finis". Based on the quality of their other plugins, I'd say this one is worth checking out.

http://elementalaudio.com/products/finis/index.html

[warhead]

I've found that Precision Limiter in the UAD-1 to be a damn fine tool. It's clean and changes the sound very little. In a way, it seems to "sharpen" things up a bit but maybe it's just me.

War

[alphajerk]

i use the psp vintage warmer. took a lot of time to really get to know it frontside AND backside... i find it quite useful on the 2buss after really getting the hang of what it does.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Ruudman

Don't hit me , but I'm trying out Ozone 3 now, and I think I like it!
With soft hands, it gives decent results.
Ok, I'm outta' here


ruudman

hey, me too and once you get to know it and work it properly, i think it's pretty good.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

i use the psp vintage warmer. took a lot of time to really get to know it frontside AND backside... i find it quite useful on the 2buss after really getting the hang of what it does.

Yup, has a cool way of gluing things together in a slightly colored way.

War

[pony]

tc master X:

2:1 compressor. turn the limiter off and the expander off.

duy tape


it gets no better.

[Ruudman]

Originally Posted by pony

..it gets no better...

What? The mix, you mean?











ruudman

[alphajerk]

oh and fwiw, start the mix with it inserted and mix to it...

[strauss]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

i use the psp vintage warmer. took a lot of time to really get to know it frontside AND backside... i find it quite useful on the 2buss after really getting the hang of what it does.

Care to share how you use it on the 2buss?

[alphajerk]

what do you mean? i insert in on the mixbuss.

how do i set it? well that depends on the program material. i do use it in multiband mode for it. do you want to know what goes through my head as im setting each setting?

[bobby_z]

alphajerk - I would

[max cooper]

OK, so PSP vintage warmer, TC Master X and Ozone 3...I have the Precision Limiter and the T-Racks stuff...the T-Racks plugins really do seem to add that hi-mid "gank" (as Fletcher calls it.) I actually used the T-Racks mastering stuff on a few "informal" mixes; but when I got ATC monitors, I could hear just how "ganky" they sound.

I'm gonna fuss with these for the next couple of days...looks like they all have demo deals unless I'm mistaken...

Interesting thing: on the PSP site there's a freebie called "Pianoverb" and I didn't hafta read the text to know that it's gonna be like a piano in the room with a sandbag on the pedal (see how thmart I am?) which I like on the drumkit sometimes...I'll check it out anyway...

thanks for the info...

[captain54]

Originally Posted by bobby_z

alphajerk - I would

So would I...

the only way I can get PSP VW to sound anywhere near decent across the MixBuss also in MB Compressor mode with knee down to about 15 or 20 and drive no more than
+4.....I start from the MB Compressor mid preset...

are you going totally by ear from tune to tune, or are there some standard ways of working with this thing???

[vaesion]

Originally Posted by krou

I used to think the Waves L2 was the s*** until my ears became more tuned and experienced, at which point I now feel like it's crap. Maybe I'm going nuts, but it seems to add some high end coloration with zero gain reduction applied, simply strapped across the buss. Start squeezing and I realize it's not as transparent as I once made it out to be....

what do you use now thats actually better

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by captain54

So would I...

the only way I can get PSP VW to sound anywhere near decent across the MixBuss also in MB Compressor mode with knee down to about 15 or 20 and drive no more than
+4.....I start from the MB Compressor mid preset...

are you going totally by ear from tune to tune, or are there some standard ways of working with this thing???

okay then, i will post later how i set all the knobs and why.... but the drive @ +4 is WAY more than i have it set at [again, that will depend on how "hard" you are hitting the mixbuss], mine is usually @ -4 to -10db.... but agan, that can vary widely depending on the material im working on, what works for a heavy rock band is no way gonna work for a singer/songwriter.

[max cooper]

manomanomanoman! the PSP Pianoverb is "not planned" for RTAS/OS X...and I'd pay for it too...

also the PSP demos are "dropout" demos instead of timed demos...I can't even go there...it's so frustrating to try to demo something like that. Ickk.

So I should probably just get the PSP VW, huh?

[BrianBrian]

You already have UA's Precision Limiter, and it really doesn't get better than that ITB. I would just stay with the PL. To my ears, the closest competitor is Voxengo's Elephant (which blows away Waves L2), but why buy another limiter if it doesn't sound better (it sounds 95% as good as the PL)?

For mixbuss compression, the UA Fairchild works very well at subtle settings (bias around 3 o clock, 1-1.5db reduction), but you may not find the color appropriate for all material. It sounds great to me on acoustic stuff and rock as well as hip-hop (not the more modern super-clean and crisp rap type). The Fairchild very slightly rolls of sub-bass, but this is very subtle and only effects extremely low frequencies. I don't ever find it a problem, although on some electronic music it's nice to add a bit of 30Hz with a nice EQ (Pultec works great for this, you should already have this right? Be advised though that the UA Pultec rolls of frequencies above 16Khz if you run it @ 44.1 ). Also experiment with the LA-2A plugin with similarly low gain reduction.

In the native VST world, I have acheived some excellent mix compression using the Sonalksis SV-315. It sounds pretty transparent and has a nice top-end, and can be used subtly or made to breathe a little to the tempo of your song. Also check out Voxengo's Crunchessor. For some strange reason, some people dismiss it without even trying it simply because it is only $50. However I think it sounds as good as the Sonalksis, and has many more options as far as coloration goes. I would characterize the sound as being very crisp and solid, and it has some kind of built in dynamic EQ which can be turned off or set to various things like "LoPump", "Punch", "Warm", "Snappy", "Dark", "Smooth", etc. You may be surprised how much these effect the overall sound, and they do so in a pretty pleasing way. It also has various degress of valve-type coloration, but honestly I don't really use it for that.

While it is not marketed as a compressor, Voxengo's TapeBus has been working awesomely for me lately. I must ask of you when trying it out, to not think of it as a tape-simulator, because you will most likely think it doesn't sound like a reel-to-reel and it's too digital or go on about how nothing has the magic of real tape. Instead, pretend it is just a relatively invisible compressor and "dense-ifier". This is the best way I can describe it. While it smooths/blurs some of the transients and applies a frequency curve taken from various tape decks, the best thing it does is to greatly increase the density of the signal, which could also be described as really gluing things together. By increasing the density and adding a little bit of dirt with this, you can push your mixbuss compressor and limiter a bit less and still achieve the same apparent volume (not that very high volume should be your goal though).

I don't suppose you have a Creamware card, but on the slim chance you do, there is a great compressor for it by DaDev called Mastercomp A23ST. The developer vaugely refers to it being loosely modeled on the Manley Vari-Mu (claimed he developed it in a high-end studio against an unspecified $4000 vari-mu compressor). It has soft, hard, and vari-mu selectable compression modes. In vari-mu mode with careful settings of a ratio around 1.2-2:1 and a very slow release, it works great on the mixbuss. Does a very nice job of smoothing things out, and it colors the sound in a nice way, particularly by affecting the bass frequencies. The coloration it provides is not adjustable, but it seems to just add some nice harmonics to the signal.

I don't have a ProTools machine, but none of the PT plugins I have used elsewhere have really stood out too much for mix compression. I'm sure I have missed a few though.

Personally, I get too sick of the Vintage Warmer sound to use it on a mix. Even with careful tweaking and using the mix knob, I find that it sounds pretty good at first, but after repeated listening the coloration stands out too much and it sounds kind of "farty" on bass frequencies.

Hope this helps.

[drew]

Originally Posted by drew

hey, me too and once you get to know it and work it properly, i think it's pretty good.

well, i've had a few weeks with it and i'm keeping it!! pretty high learning curve/getting used to it but i think it's very powerful. check it out.

[JB3]

...really surprised that no one has mentioned 2 unique tools for the 2 bus slot:

McDSP Analog Channels 1 and 2 for a little 'glue'/shape and

Waves original L1, which I will use instead of L2 any day for limiting and ITB dither to BTD.

...I also second the Fairchild plugin as being very nice. PSP VW is cool but has learning curve and uses mucho resources.

2 cents...

...J

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by strauss

Care to share how you use it on the 2buss?

so has everyone read the manual?

my approach will be different for stuff i mix as i probably do things differently to the individual channels than you do so adapt this to what you do i guess.

first, i start with it on the 2buss with the low @ 100hz and the high @ 8k-10k and both those level knobs at 0. the drive i start at 0 and the knee around 30, the speed at 50, the release @ 1. the mix is always at 100%. the ceiling starts at zero and the baskside i start with the staurations all at 0 and the release for low x4, the mid at 1 and the high at .25.

the big things to consider when using it is the saturation on the back and the ceiling on the front work with each other. the release on the back and the release on the front go together [i kinda wished these were all on the front as little knobs below the associated knobs but they arent so i flip the thing over]... but its pretty odd when i move the ceiling too far off 0 for 2buss.

big two things that i mess with is the knee and the speed first after i get a rough mix built, and i always keep tweaking this plugin as the mix progresses. for a smoother sound, turn the knee to zero but for a punchier sound go clockwise.... sound gets more hard going clockwise on that knob. the speed i generally use for attack and let the attack i want through before the limiter clamps down on the signal on the final output of it. it does work in relation to the speed knob [and the release knobs of the back so if i get the attack i want but the release is too fast or slow, i change the speed knob of the front and then flip to the back and fine tune those release settings [kinda wish there was a solo for each band while working on it, but something to be said about not letting you solo and listening as a whole]

so now you are starting to get some compression and loudness to the mix, probably rivaling commercial releases in loudness by this time. the meters i leave always set to GR and flip between VU and PPM. but as the GR meters start moving more, that is when i start to back off the drive [or if im not getting enough compression/limiting, i add some]... now with the drive set, and i usually set this during hte loudest passages of the song because if you dont, you are setting yourself up for massive slamming when they do come. so set that drive to be working nicely during the loudest parts so they are nice and excited sounding but no pumping [which is also very easy to do]

now i listen to the balance between low/mids/highs and thats where the ceiling knob and the saturation knobs come in handy, and while back working on those set the releases right. i check the lows and see if tehy are getting through enough but not enough to set off the limiter overreacting to the low information. the saturation basically sets its ceiling in relation to the other two bands. a lot of times i will increase it a db or 2 but that spretty program dependant. same goes for the mids which i tend to open up a bit as well, the highs usually stay where they are.

if the bass gets that farty sound, i make the release multiplier by 4 on the low on the back and then move the release on the front until that distortion goes away, and then go back to deal with the mids/highs and usually shorten their time more. obviously the higher the freq, the faster release you can get away with, but you can also use them to your advantage the other way.

as for the crossover settings, i use 100hz because i like to focus the plugin on what is basically going to be feeding the sub and controlling that for some nice consistant level so when i bring it into my truck and the sub in there keeps pounding nicely along with the song and no odd suprises there.

the mids i generally take care of as a huge swipe from low mids to upper highs [5kish range and up] and leave the high xover point for the "air"... 10k sometimes. i adjust the levels feeding the compressor from there as to how much i want to feed it but this also reacts with the saturation settings. again, one of the reason i revisit this plugin over and over through a mix because how i alter the tracks within the mix invariably affects how the plugin is processing the result.

if you look at the block diagram, its the input feed the drive>multiband comps>limiter.... so you want to make sure your comp levles on the bands are pretty balanced going into the limiter or that will reek havoc upon the mix.
now while i change these settings through the mix, obviously its not gonna change EVERYTHING i want it to so by putting it on the 2buss to begin with you adjust your individual tracks to take out or add things you want happening in each of the sections you define iwth the corssover points.


does any of this make any sense?

[captain54]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

does any of this make any sense?

Alpha, you are my new hero.....

yes, this plug now completely makes sense to me.....

I've messed around with some of your suggestions on a raw "bedroom" recorded
drum submix with no processing at all.....

I then applied the PSP VW to the master buss and started tweaking.....

thank you for taking the time and for sharing your efforts....

[snedley]

I like the Timeworks Mastering Suite.

[FMNYC]

i have to just echo some of the comments above about the Waves stuff.
for a while i thought it was the best plugs i had ever heard.
now i'm not so sure.
i think that if you can be very light handed with them you'll get decent results.

other than that the URS plugs are great.

anyway, if i was still ITB i would continue to use the Waves plugs but i would definetly use a very light touch and i would slap those puppies on the master fader the moment i begin any mixing at all, heck, i've even tracked with the plugs on the master fader a couple of times.

cheers!

FM

FM is but a shadow of his former self.